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#26 teh_saccade

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:10 AM

Replaying Splinter Cell: Conviction in a lethal manner results in many conversations between Fisher and Grim that I had no idea existed.

eg, first mission, - using the automatic weapon to destroy radio and kill operator results in, "wow...", "hey radio and radio-man, no way they'll know we're coming", "yeah but... messy...", "maria narcissa?", "are you trying to set me up on another date, Grim..?".

I had never heard this before in several years of playing this game, because I had never performed this action.

It was rewarding to discover new content for my actions and to receive the reaction from the handler.
It is "punished by"/results in a lower success rate at the end of the mission than for non-lethal/ghost-like approaches.

The objectives are still achieved, which is the ultimate aim. The play comes in how this happens.

In Dishonored, I played high-chaos run for steam achievements.
The violence I found distasteful, as I would look for it and act as a predator or psychopath (kill 5 enemies with razor? ok I use at a party on the civilians) - eventually so over-powered that there was little challenge and more opportunity for violence and destruction - the world became a "darker" place (rats) and it did not feel in-line with the character that was developing during the story, nor the backstory as protectorate and caring individual for the girl.

Often it was a case of coming up with elaborate ways to kill people as fast as possible (tempus, possession, move bullet, place mine) and a diversion only.
There was no tension nor as much action as there was in the discovery and trickery required in order to retain the low-chaos approach.

It is also the reason why I like less the 2nd game, as well as the 2nd "new" DX game - the characters are more super-hero and over-powered with a focus on corridor confrontation / take this route we have provided instead without soul. No middle ground. Black and White. Binary.

However, Dishonored based the consequences only on lethal/non-lethal - a binary consequence for overt and violent player action, similar the DX:HR (which ended the same regardless, it was only achievements that were rewards for foxiest of hounds, etc...).

This is not quite the same as the relay of an alert to be prepared as the enemy (ie, the thief) is on their way, where there is the potential for a spectrum of grey in the development of the player's experience and how they impose their personal ethos onto their character (or empathise / disregard).
 



#27 V-Man339

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 02:15 PM

Replaying Splinter Cell: Conviction in a lethal manner results in many conversations between Fisher and Grim that I had no idea existed.

eg, first mission, - using the automatic weapon to destroy radio and kill operator results in, "wow...", "hey radio and radio-man, no way they'll know we're coming", "yeah but... messy...", "maria narcissa?", "are you trying to set me up on another date, Grim..?".

I had never heard this before in several years of playing this game, because I had never performed this action.

It was rewarding to discover new content for my actions and to receive the reaction from the handler.
It is "punished by"/results in a lower success rate at the end of the mission than for non-lethal/ghost-like approaches.

The objectives are still achieved, which is the ultimate aim. The play comes in how this happens.

In Dishonored, I played high-chaos run for steam achievements.
The violence I found distasteful, as I would look for it and act as a predator or psychopath (kill 5 enemies with razor? ok I use at a party on the civilians) - eventually so over-powered that there was little challenge and more opportunity for violence and destruction - the world became a "darker" place (rats) and it did not feel in-line with the character that was developing during the story, nor the backstory as protectorate and caring individual for the girl.

Often it was a case of coming up with elaborate ways to kill people as fast as possible (tempus, possession, move bullet, place mine) and a diversion only.
There was no tension nor as much action as there was in the discovery and trickery required in order to retain the low-chaos approach.

It is also the reason why I like less the 2nd game, as well as the 2nd "new" DX game - the characters are more super-hero and over-powered with a focus on corridor confrontation / take this route we have provided instead without soul. No middle ground. Black and White. Binary.

However, Dishonored based the consequences only on lethal/non-lethal - a binary consequence for overt and violent player action, similar the DX:HR (which ended the same regardless, it was only achievements that were rewards for foxiest of hounds, etc...).

This is not quite the same as the relay of an alert to be prepared as the enemy (ie, the thief) is on their way, where there is the potential for a spectrum of grey in the development of the player's experience and how they impose their personal ethos onto their character (or empathise / disregard).
 

That's Chaos Theory, not Conviction.

Careful, the series fans will pull hair over that distinction.

 

Agreed, I feel like acknowledgement of actions will always be better than restriction for most folks, though every once in a while the hardcore players will enjoy something catered to them.


I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.
Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.


#28 teh_saccade

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 06:17 AM

I stand corrected - I always get them mixed up despite the big differences (CT is the best! then BL)... :/

However, point of note: It is possible to complete Conviction with only... I can't remember the number of "takedowns/kills" you HAD to do... something like 50ish out of the thousand odd enemies there are?

Even the Iraq mission, armed only with hand grenades and a scoped AK and pistol required only a couple of kills to pass (at the end).

Nearly every level could be completed (after mansion which "doesn't count" for certain PEC and requires several takedowns to reach Kobin) without a takedown, lethal or not, no alerts, etc...
There were the interrogations at the fairground, the whitebox room defence and a few other places where "KO/kill" was unavoidable.

Damn, man - you made me want to replay Conviction now to re-count how many it was unless I can find the speed-run video from all those years ago.
The co-op was very difficult to complete in a similar manner, but some sections were extremely quick and easy if there was no contact.

Splinter Cell: Arcade Edition :P

But yeah - it is a hard thing to do, to break your own character and bend it into a different shape in order to fit - but there is always the meta-game, ulterior objective kinda restrictions that such players will place upon themselves.

ie, I will complete No Mercy, Solo, with only pistols, never stop moving, use all the glitches I can and beat my best time today. Same game, same "easy" game rules, different "more difficult" player rules inside those.

Badminton is easy - it's not restricted to anything other than a net and a few lines.
Put it in a box and remove the feathers from the ball and you get squash, which is a lot harder.
You just gotta build your own box around the badminton court.

A ball cannot bounce without walls, so I agree restriction is a good thing (unless you want a ball that appears static or may as well be, moving ever onwards...) - however, I am convicted (chaos theory'd) to the notion that hardcore players will always develop their own walls to climb and aim for 100%, even if unobtainable.

Simply, designing for a game such as TDM appears to allow for less binary consequence than others due, so long as the logic and implementation can be figured out inside the confines of DR...

Working on it... But - likely as soon as it's almost ready, another update will come and... oh, ok then :)



#29 V-Man339

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 10:29 PM

I stand corrected - I always get them mixed up despite the big differences (CT is the best! then BL)... :/

However, point of note: It is possible to complete Conviction with only... I can't remember the number of "takedowns/kills" you HAD to do... something like 50ish out of the thousand odd enemies there are?

Even the Iraq mission, armed only with hand grenades and a scoped AK and pistol required only a couple of kills to pass (at the end).

Nearly every level could be completed (after mansion which "doesn't count" for certain PEC and requires several takedowns to reach Kobin) without a takedown, lethal or not, no alerts, etc...
There were the interrogations at the fairground, the whitebox room defence and a few other places where "KO/kill" was unavoidable.

Damn, man - you made me want to replay Conviction now to re-count how many it was unless I can find the speed-run video from all those years ago.
The co-op was very difficult to complete in a similar manner, but some sections were extremely quick and easy if there was no contact.

Splinter Cell: Arcade Edition :P

But yeah - it is a hard thing to do, to break your own character and bend it into a different shape in order to fit - but there is always the meta-game, ulterior objective kinda restrictions that such players will place upon themselves.

ie, I will complete No Mercy, Solo, with only pistols, never stop moving, use all the glitches I can and beat my best time today. Same game, same "easy" game rules, different "more difficult" player rules inside those.

Badminton is easy - it's not restricted to anything other than a net and a few lines.
Put it in a box and remove the feathers from the ball and you get squash, which is a lot harder.
You just gotta build your own box around the badminton court.

A ball cannot bounce without walls, so I agree restriction is a good thing (unless you want a ball that appears static or may as well be, moving ever onwards...) - however, I am convicted (chaos theory'd) to the notion that hardcore players will always develop their own walls to climb and aim for 100%, even if unobtainable.

Simply, designing for a game such as TDM appears to allow for less binary consequence than others due, so long as the logic and implementation can be figured out inside the confines of DR...

Working on it... But - likely as soon as it's almost ready, another update will come and... oh, ok then :)

Oh yeah, Conviction could be bent, but you could really, really tell they didn't intend the game to be played that way, it fights you the entire time.

 

TDM and Chaos Theory on the flip side clearly invoke minimalism over speed, I've noticed. Conviction has the most enjoyable speedrun scene, as well as Blacklist, but that's not really the mentality behind CT or Thief.


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I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.
Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.


#30 teh_saccade

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 06:45 AM

Ain't no-one got time fo' dat.

 

I love speed-running TDM and CT missions in different ways.

It only takes a dozen or so play-throughs to figure out the route and tricks - there are several TDM missions in which, if you take some time to backtrack a few blocks and bring a chair - you can climb over that gate that needs the key and cut out a massive section of the level.

Where Douglas Adams said, "always bring a towel" - I say, in TDM, "always bring a chair/crate".

 






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