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Taking a step back... from the edge


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#51 wesp5

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 03:20 AM

Glad to hear it. Well, the "you are not gone" part, not the "burned out" part!

Agreed! I apologize for my "diva" comment, but at the time it sounded like multiple people disappeared because of minor differences. Modding burn out is a common problem, just take a break and come back when you have fun doing things again :).


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#52 Baal

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 05:41 AM

Hey Biker. I wish you all the best. Don't beat yourself up too much about things you have or may have done wrong (I don't really know what happened).

 

You also were of great help to a lot of people, including me. I would most likely never have released a mission without your help. So thank you again. 


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#53 SneaksieDave

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 03:22 PM

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There. Both parties have now spoken peaceful and healthy words on the topic and healing can begin.  So just knock it off and get the fug back in there!

 

Oh, and by the way, hi!

 

(I have no real clue what's going on beyond this post and have no desire to make light of it;  I have myself been off and on gone forever due in no small part to a bunch of life changes and demands.  That said, I'd hate to see either of you leave... so just, don't!  :wub: )


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#54 NeonsStyle

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 10:12 AM

To be honest, whoever this is between, you guys need to get onto skype and sit down and work it out. You are all too valuable to

this community to be lost over misunderstandings and misinterpretations. Text has a bad way of being misread, and talking things out

and clearing the air can put all this to rest so everyone is happy again. I really hope that's done so no one feels they have to leave

a community you have put your heart and soul into, as I know Bikerdude has done.

 

Others butting in and adding psycho-bullshit is just not helpful and possibly deeply embarrassing.


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#55 Abusimplea

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:36 PM

This is just the daily bump to keep the thread alive.



#56 Springheel

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 07:48 AM

So I am leaving the mod permanently. I have permanently deleted any and all data I had related to the Darkmod from all local drives and cloud backups.

 
 
Since your profile pic is back and you're talking in other threads about making new textures, should we assume this is no longer the case?


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#57 Bikerdude

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 09:12 AM

Since your profile pic is back and you're talking in other threads about making new textures, should we assume this is no longer the case?

To use my quote above -

  • So I am leaving the mod permanently - the trip to The Netherlands gave me some new inspiration, so for now yes this is no longer the case.
  • I have permanently deleted any and all data I had related to the Darkmod from all local drives and cloud backups - almost all of the data is gone, all thats left is shadowhides city mission and all the prefabs I made. And thats assuming someone didnt take a backup of my MEGAsync archive.

Is there something else I should or need to be aware off..?


Edited by Bikerdude, 17 July 2018 - 02:00 AM.

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#58 unfairlight

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 09:44 AM

I'm glad you haven't called quits entirely. You're definitely a important part of the community and I think many of us are glad.


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#59 chakkman

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 09:51 AM

Shame about all the work though.  :unsure: It's your decision, but, quite a drastic measure.



#60 Springheel

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 10:14 AM

Is there something else I should or need to be aware off..?

 
It was more about what other people might want to be aware of.  There were a lot of people who were disappointed when you deleted your profile pic and stated you were quitting for good, and I'm sure they would like to know that you changed your mind and are still here.
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#61 Bikerdude

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 01:58 PM

Ok.

Shame about all the work though

If and when I get back into mapping, I will just have to go through the pain of recreating everything. Which will just serve to hammer home and remind me the reason/s for the deletion.
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#62 nbohr1more

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 02:12 PM

Soo...

 

I would be glad to see you resume in some way but there's no need to burden yourself on anything you previously obligated yourself to.

 

In that spirit, would it be alright if I put Winter Harvest V2 back up in the catalog?

 

I know you were planning a V3 but there's no need to have it hanging over your shoulders if you aren't anywhere near done (or it's gone).


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#63 Bikerdude

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 02:23 PM

In that spirit, would it be alright if I put Winter Harvest V2 back up in the catalog?

I see you have tested it under 2.06, so by all means - I assume you wanted to add EFX? if so please do.
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#64 nbohr1more

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 02:24 PM

Will try to get this done in the next few days. :)


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#65 Atomica

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 07:43 AM

.


Edited by Atomica, 01 August 2018 - 11:31 PM.

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#66 Springheel

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:48 AM

I don't like seeing the names of various contributors like Airship-ballet and finding out the sordid history of things of my fav mod.

 
Keep in mind that the summary you've read is one person's interpretation of what happened.  I suspect the people named therein, especially Airship Ballet, would describe it very differently if they wanted to discuss it in the public forums.
 


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#67 Goldwell

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 09:27 AM

So I just reread the backstory that he wrote and edited in later. And I think (or rather hope) that most people understand that it's just his lone point of view on the matter. Reading through it, it feels quite different to how I remember events going down and I don't really appreciate having my name dragged through the mud but if he feels so inclined then that's his right I guess but i'll add my 2 cents to the conversation seeing as i'm being mentioned in the OP.
 
Of my experience with him in the early days he was a pretty nice guy, I quite liked him. But as time went on his toxic behaviour became more and more apparent and that eventuated in a blowup between us. I thought maybe I was a one time thing, but since then he has had a blow out with Springheel, and Airship Ballet, and Melan, etc etc.
 
Considering how many people have left The Dark Mod because of Bikerdude it is quite hard reading some of the comments in this thread. But I do understand it, from a public perspective he can be seen as almost a mod hero, but there is a lot of this story that has not been told in public. So basically you're only reading his public point of view without any of the backstory as to why (in his eyes) out of nowhere all of these people suddenly started acting mean to Bikerdude.

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#68 Bikerdude

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 01:44 PM

But there is a lot of this story that has not been told in public. So basically you're only reading his public point of view without any of the backstory as to why (in his eyes) out of nowhere all of these people suddenly started acting mean to Bikerdude.

There is nothing or no one stopping anyone giving alternative opinions or sides here, and the above two posts just encapsulate part of the issue.

 

@TDM Team, just take a group vote and decide once and for all whether you want me here or not.



#69 Destined

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 01:45 PM

Up until now I never saw the spoiler in Bikerdude's first post (which I assume was edited in some time later). I am aware that this was written by Bikderdude and thus has to be quite one sided, but being on this forum for a couple of years now, I think I know the people here as well as one can in a forum (never having met any of these people personally) and I know some of the quirks of the people. And from what I have gathered many of the most active members are also quite unique (which is the best description I can find, even though it does not really hit home). Springheel can come on quite strong "defending" the mod from what he sees as criticism (be it justified or not), Judith (who is relatively new, but still very active) can seem to be quite condescending regarding quality of models and textures, Arship Ballet was often quite passive aggressive, etc. so it was no wonder that there were to be frictions between the people involved. I never knew how deep the wounds went, but I am not really surprised, to be honest. I find it very sad, that things developed as they did and I think that many things could have been avoided if people would have talked to each other from the start, but sometimes this also does not help. From what I have gathered Bikerdude never wanted to step on any feet, but did so (and repeatedly) anyway, so I respected his decision to leave. Still, I think his not leaving completely is not a bad thing as long as he can restrain himself from dashing forward in various things; and not having an admistratory role may help in this regard.

This from a person whom Bikerdude helped (in not mod realted issues). I think he really wants to be helpful, but sometimes does too much, which then backfires. I would be very glad if this community would get along as well as possible, regardless of the differences that may arise. As I said: It helps if people actually adress issues with the person him/herself rather than talking behind the back. This only makes things worse. If the person does not respond to any mitigation, this is no use, of course, but it does not hurt to try.


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#70 nbohr1more

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 02:07 PM

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C'mon.

 

Of course folks want Biker around here.

 

We don't need to turn this Community into a mirror of Saint Peter's Gate and only allow the Angels into Heaven.

 

Everyone is guilty of interpersonal foibles once in a while.

 

The biggest issues that Biker caused around here were due to his "abuse of authority".

 

If Biker is an "equal peer" to other mission authors, his services are generally more helpful than destructive.

 

Let's end this chapter and welcome Biker back on the terms we would want if any of us had misbehaved

and were asking to return to the community.

 

"Guarded but optimistic."

 

Feel free to disagree but that's how I see things.


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#71 wesp5

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 03:09 PM

I have just read the hidden paragrah Bikerdude added to his first posting and just want to say one thing: Bikerdude, please try to get SteveL to come back! After you apologized to everyone else here, maybe you can work it out with him too...


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#72 OrbWeaver

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 03:45 PM

It seems I missed most of the drama, but if the worst thing Biker did was come on a bit strong trying to improve other people's maps, I'd say he's doing pretty well.

 

I wonder how many people have been around long enough to remember oDDity? Perhaps just Springheel and SneaksieDave at this point. That guy was quite possibly the best 3D modeller in the world, but holy shit he had the social skills of an electrified cheesegrater. Personally I found him entertaining, but a model of tact and diplomacy he was not.

 

We had another guy who had to be shown the door after trying to launch a coup and promote himself to art director simply because he decided his own somewhat average skills were superior to those of everyone else.

 

Someone else joined, contributed pretty much nothing, continually complained about being victimised in some incomprehensible way, then ragequit with an equally incomprehensible rant about how the mod team was shit.

 

Someone offered to help, then flew off the handle and quit after a team member used bad language to complain about the forum software (I think it was a communications issue, and he assumed the bad language was aimed at him).

 

And those are just the ones I can remember, from this particular mod. Parts of the open-source programming community are much worse (assuming you don't actually enjoy drama, which I'm sure some people do). I pity the poor sods who have to work on Linux kernel development. One of the last messages I read from the kernel mailing list involved Linus Torvalds literally telling someone to "shut the fuck up!".


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#73 chakkman

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 04:58 PM

You know, i don't know who to blame for what here, but, i always noticed that, at the point things may appear to beceome too important in the online world, it's healthy to take a step back, and realize that the world online will keep turning, with or without your presence. From what i can tell, things here have gone wrong because some people are just too full of themselves.

 

And, as we're already at it: I know it's not a nice thing to say, but, i knew pretty much from day one Airship Ballet appeared here that there were some personal issues involved. Pretty much screamed at me. The way she was very offensive, while getting very defensive when someone got too personal, or upfront was pretty obvious. Dunno what happened to her, but, surely some bad, bad things. Not that that would excuse acting like that.

 

Anyway, i can only say that Bikerdude is a vital part of the modding community for me. I like almost all of his maps, and, especially, the city design has always been very, very nice. Already a shame that all that work was lost. Probably would have been better to take a step back for a while, and then come back. I often have some issues with other members in other forums, and, it's really not worth such a drastic step as completely going away. If you take a look at what the respective people do, you will also often see that they get themselves frequently into "trouble", so, it may not even be a personal thing. Even though i understand it was here. 


Edited by chakkman, 17 July 2018 - 05:02 PM.

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#74 Abusimplea

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 05:56 PM

I pity the poor sods who have to work on Linux kernel development. One of the last messages I read from the kernel mailing list involved Linus Torvalds literally telling someone to "shut the fuck up!".

That might have been this post about how he really disagrees with some ARM developer, who just decided  to completely ignore the sacred no-user-space-breakage rule. Completely reasonable reaction by Linus in my view. He really doesn't do it that often. Every few years, he has to remind someone, that it is either following the rules or beeing thrown out of official Linux kernel development. I actually like Linus' direct and to-the-point style of communication. If i where a kernel developer, i would probably like to work with him because he seems to keep his turf clean and prevents sloppyness from creeping into the code base.
 
TDM really is a "safe space" compared to almost all other places on the Internet i've been. And there is nothing wrong with that...
But forgiveness and accepting the faultyness of human communication (especially if it is asynchronous), might probably go a long way to prevent future repeats of the pattern (don't know, how much contributors left over minor comunication stuff already - but the topic seems to come up from time to time). Reading more LKML might actually help too (but only if the people do it that would otherwise have to leave or get someone removed).



#75 Springheel

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 07:29 PM

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I've really been biting my tongue in this thread, since I wasn't even involved in the most recent incident. But since my name keeps coming up anyway, I might as well put a few things on the table.

In general, the development team tries to keep heated arguments out of the public forums. Given that the team is made up of passionate people communicating over the internet, disagreements and conflicts are inevitable. Tempers occasionally flare, arguments are had, apologies are made. For the most part we deal with it behind the scenes like adults.

Keeping disagreements out of the public forums can be a double-edge sword, however. When conflicts DO spill over into public, people can get a very distorted view of what the problem is and how long it has been going on. There have been plenty of posts in this thread from people who are well-meaning but not entirely informed, describing the issue as a "personal thing" or "petty argument". While this might seem like a reasonable assumption, it has the unintended consequence of trivializing what has been a genuine problem for years.

Think what you like of me, but Melan is one of the most level-headed and even-tempered mappers around. He is not the kind of person to explode over a "simple misunderstanding". Anyone tempted to judge the situation that way should, at a minimum, read what actually happened. It's certainly not an example of something "being misread". And it is far from an isolated incident.

Bikerdude's own account of the problem (which should be read by anyone wanting to make informed comments, even though I would argue it has multiple, rather self-serving inaccuracies) lists five different people who have been pushed to either angry reactions or leaving the community entirely by interactions with Bikerdude--within just the last two years. That's a startling number, and there are other instances of people leaving for the same reason not even mentioned in that account. That is a significant problem far beyond the occasional squabble between team members (the loss of SteveL, one of our top level coders, is especially bitter). To characterize it as "language differences" is just unhelpful.

Multiple people have spoken directly to Bikerdude for years now, both in private and in public, trying to communicate a simple message--don't change other people's work without their permission--yet it continues to happen. That's the message Airship Ballet tried to send three years ago. It's the message I tried to send more times than I can count. Several other team members have tried. There were entire threads devoted to this in the development forums. And yet the message just doesn't get through. Each time it happens again the frustration grows. Melan is just the most recent in a long line of people getting angry about this same behaviour.  What happens next time?

No one asked Bikerdude to leave--not over this recent incident and not the other times in the past year where he claimed he was leaving. No one--least of all Melan, who regularly collaborated with him--is trying to "push him away". But there are a lot of people who want him to, as Bikerdude himself put it, "stop making what are clearly avoidable mistakes". Only he knows how to make that happen.


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