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Easily lost/disoriented


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#1 CarltonTroisi

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 02:09 PM

Anyone else find it very easy to get lost or disoriented in some missions?

 

Going back through a lot of the same rooms, for example, not knowing where the right direction is?

 

Or is it just me, with my "poor spatial orientation" etc?

 

It's at its worst in very large missions, especially those without a map.  For instance, The Ravine by Spoonman, I got lost constantly in this one.. I was barely able to find my way back to the start of the mission.  I couldn't even remember where I started.  It's a great mission, just too hard for one like me.

 

I think I had the same problem with Crucibles 1: Behind Closed Doors, and that one actually had a map!  But the mission was so large and sprawling I ended up backtracking and getting lost many times.  At the end of it, I felt mentally exhausted and almost glad it was over.  Still, a great mission overall.  I'll have to replay it again, eventually.

 

In summary, has anyone else dealt with this problem?  Any strategies to improve spatial memory, etc?



#2 Springheel

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 02:15 PM

You're not the only one to mention this, especially about those particular maps.

 

I remember when playing the Bonehoard for the first time, I got completely lost and started making a pen and paper map, D&D style, to orient myself.


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#3 Anderson

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 02:38 PM

When that happens I waltz myself Quake style through the map.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

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#4 Atomica

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 05:10 PM

I actually kinda like it, the getting lost part. Reminds me of old-school games that forced you to try to remember landmarks and areas rather than just relying on a quest HUD indicator. The fact that I find them disorientating might be more of a sign of my own navigation skills getting rusty because I've become too used to modern game niceties that hold my hand through such labyrinths. Having said that, if a mission has too many same-looking corridors or tunnels with few distinguishing features, then it does start to become a bit of a chore.


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#5 freyk

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 11:27 PM

CarltonTroisi, if you have played Thief 1 t/m 3 its normal to have/use minimal solutions for navigation

and so to get lost in the environment. To me, thats is a feature to make Thief, Deus ex and TDM great.

 

Pro-tip:

Make use of the compass and landmarks.


Edited by freyk, 15 June 2017 - 02:37 AM.

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#6 Anderson

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 03:49 AM

It gets at you after a while if you played The Elder Scrolls II Daggerfall.


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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#7 Melan

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 04:39 AM

It is a matter of practice. The map (if there is one) and the compass helps, but a relational map of prominent locations can also be useful.


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#8 CarltonTroisi

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Posted 15 June 2017 - 02:00 PM

It is a matter of practice. The map (if there is one) and the compass helps, but a relational map of prominent locations can also be useful.

Perhaps, perhaps not.  I've been playing first-person games for many years and I'm hardly any better with navigation.

 

I often have moments where I go "am I supposed to go left, or right?" and it seems to echo the poor spatial-orientation I have in real life!

 

Poor working memory may be a part of it, as well.  I don't seem to commit "space" to memory.



#9 LDAsh

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 01:33 AM

I don't mean to sound offensive or condescending or anything, but maybe you could get into the habit of doodling a rough map onto a notepad (IRL).



#10 Obsttorte

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Posted 16 June 2017 - 05:06 AM

Landmarks are helpful, if there are some. Things that might appear recognizable to the mapper might not be for the player. And it depends a lot on the layout of the mission. Missions that are build like mazes can easely get you lost. And if a map (if there is any) does not represent the architecture in a suitable way, it isn't of much use either.

 

Personally I think that you could see it as a feature, and in some kind of missions (haunted city scenario with lots of broken buildings etc...) a player might expect a little bit of that getting lost. But you certainly wouldn't expect that in a city mission for example where locations are connected via roads. If players tend to get lost there very often (and I am one of those who tend to), I would more see it as a concept mistake of the specific mission or game, not as a feature or lack of skill from my side.


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#11 NeonsStyle

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 12:33 AM

I hate to state the obvious, but you do have a compass. ;) If you also have a map, then the compass will guide you at least in the right direction. Just remember,

on those larger maps (I played Crucible of Omens last night), the person who made it, designed it for you to notice certain things of importance. Things

like a light making something important is the usual way. I get lost too at times, but I like it. Last night in Crucible I got lost and it took a lttle while for

me to release how to get to the west side of the map. 


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#12 Wallace

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:45 PM

Id much rather have giant sprawling levels that test my navigation and orientation skills, than a linear A-B route with a few side rooms here and there.



#13 chakkman

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 04:34 PM

Anyone else find it very easy to get lost or disoriented in some missions?

 

Going back through a lot of the same rooms, for example, not knowing where the right direction is?

 

Or is it just me, with my "poor spatial orientation" etc?

 

I can totally relate to that. Some TDM missions, but also the original Thief games' missions sometimes kept me thinking "Ugh... i do have quite a good sense of orientation, but, what will people do who don't...". Although i'm playing Fallout 3 GOTY Edition ATM, and some locations there, and, especially, the metro tunnels are like HUUUUGE, and mostly same-ish looking, so, that's even worse IMO. Sometimes, also, the original Thief missions had quite an adventurous level design, for example that artist house in Thief Dark Project, which added to the difficult orientation.

 

Anyway, it's manageable in most/all cases, so, no problem for me. I rather have big levels, than small ones, which more feel like a teaser than a mission. I prefer 3 or 4 hours of play time to 1 hour.



#14 Durandall

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 05:04 PM

I've been considering/testing an always visible HUD compass kind of like Thief 3. It only shows if you have a compass in your inventory. It's been pretty sweet so far. What do you guys think?


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#15 chakkman

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 05:10 PM

Sounds good to me.



#16 wesp5

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 05:24 AM

To me too! Maybe make it switchable in some option menu for hard-core players who don't want it.



#17 Durandall

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:12 AM

Here's a video: https://youtu.be/pUY1lNdZT2A


Edited by Durandall, 10 August 2017 - 08:13 AM.


#18 freyk

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 09:20 AM

Wow, thats Nice.
i want use that in the missions i play
And for my cyberpunk FM.
Could you upload the gui and script, for download?

#19 Durandall

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 09:31 AM

Wow, thats Nice.
i want use that in the missions i play
And for my cyberpunk FM.
Could you upload the gui and script, for download?

 

It's not using scripts at the moment. It's code, a model, and gui modifications. Some code will be needed if this feature is to be optional (a console cvar and related code). I'm in the process of moving, but I will be looking into various options soon. It may be possible to move most of the code into scripts since The Dark Mod does not allow a compass (or any item) to be removed from the player. However, if it could be removed or is made droppable, the script api will need to be expanded so that the compass gui can be disabled. Also, this will not render correctly if bug 4569 is not resolved.


Edited by Durandall, 10 August 2017 - 09:31 AM.


#20 NeonsStyle

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 11:22 AM

I've been considering/testing an always visible HUD compass kind of like Thief 3. It only shows if you have a compass in your inventory. It's been pretty sweet so far. What do you guys think?

 

I'd like it, but I'd like it to be able to be toggle off with a key press. I like an uncluttered hud, so having an option to turn it off in controls (not options) is a good idea.

ie use the current key to turn have it show or not.

 

The video is cool, but wouldn't it be better if it was a bit more steam punk like? Less modern looking?


Edited by NeonsStyle, 10 August 2017 - 11:24 AM.

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#21 Durandall

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 11:28 AM

 

I'd like it, but I'd like it to be able to be toggle off with a key press. I like an uncluttered hud, so having an option to turn it off in controls (not options) is a good idea.

ie use the current key to turn have it show or not.

 

The video is cool, but wouldn't it be better if it was a bit more steam punk like? Less modern looking?

 

I can try remodeling it using another font if someone has a suggestion. It took a lot of work to make that as I have no 3d modeling experience. The font used is actually the normal Carleton font, but with reduced triangles.

 

As for the keybind, I think most people would agree that The Dark Mod already has too many. I suppose it could be made available and left blank for the user to choose. You could always replace the select compass key for personal use. Either way, you can very easily create a manual keybind to toggle the visibility even if an option never makes it into the keybind menu.



#22 CarltonTroisi

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 01:55 PM

I've been considering/testing an always visible HUD compass kind of like Thief 3. It only shows if you have a compass in your inventory. It's been pretty sweet so far. What do you guys think?

Absolutely, man!  Anything that would help to get around the often maze-like structure of TDM missions, would be desirable.


Edited by CarltonTroisi, 11 August 2017 - 02:34 PM.


#23 chakkman

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 10:41 AM

 

I'd like it, but I'd like it to be able to be toggle off with a key press. I like an uncluttered hud, so having an option to turn it off in controls (not options) is a good idea.

ie use the current key to turn have it show or not.

 

Yeah. I totally forgot actually, that the compass in the inventory already shows directional arrows.  :laugh: So, ya, if another solution, i'd also be happy to be able to toggle it on and off, and not to have it permanently on, as i also prefer a clean HUD. So, to have it optionally would surely be a good idea.






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