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#276 JackFarmer

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 12:27 PM

Hello Springheel,

 

 

You mentioned in one of you videos that there are LODs for almost all models availabe.  I made heavy use of the rock models (nature/rocks/rockxx - see image below, blue stuff on the right), but I cannot find LOD models for them. Are there no LODs for these stone models available?

 

 

 

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  • Workshop Paganhouse_2017-12-22_18.10.54.jpg

Edited by JackFarmer, 22 December 2017 - 12:28 PM.

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#277 Springheel

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 12:42 PM

I don't think I said for most models.  I may have said most modules (as in, models in the architecture/modules folder).

 

I don't know who made those rocks.  Are they that high-poly that they need LOD stages?



#278 JackFarmer

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 12:56 PM

Ah, I understood "models". Sorry for confusing that; English is not my first language, you know. :)

 

As you know, I am still learning and thus it is hard for me to define whether they have to be considered high-poly, please see for yourself below, grid size is 16.

 

Well, after I have visportaled the small building and removed most of lights, I was able to increase the fps to the above depicted 30 - 50 (depends on the location you stand). I am using a machine with inferior hardware, so I suppose it would do well on high-end machines.

 

Hm....

 

 

 

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  • sample_rocks.jpg


#279 Springheel

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:09 PM

They don't look especially high poly to me, but when you select them in the model selector window, it will tell you how many polys they are. If there are less than 1000, it's not usually worth making LOD versions.



#280 JackFarmer

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:29 PM

Yes....well....I think I missed that in your tutorials (*donotkillme*) - how do I activate the model selector window?



#281 Springheel

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 01:57 PM

It's the window that comes up when you choose a new model.  Down in the bottom left somewhere it tells you the number of polys, I believe.



#282 JackFarmer

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:19 PM

Your memory is right; I have found it.

 

Most of the rocks have 1500 polys. The largest piece even 2000 and I have used all of them multiple times in the same visleaf which I cannot split in suitable addtional visleafs due to the nature of the area (building in the middle, exits to the left and to the right with active portals):

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Edited by JackFarmer, 22 December 2017 - 02:19 PM.

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#283 Springheel

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:31 PM

I have used all of them multiple times in the same visleaf which I cannot split in suitable addtional visleafs

 

 

You definitely can and should add visportals.  Something like this, where the pink lines are caulk walls and the green are visportals, would help a lot:

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  • visportal.jpg

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#284 JackFarmer

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:44 PM

Hello Springheel,

 

I will try it and revert to you with the results.

 

Many thanks for your quick help, as always.



#285 Obsttorte

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:20 PM

Instead of using these models you should probably consider using some custom models made from patches (you can export them as models). Lots of the tris are facing outside the area and are not visible to the play if standing in that area, but they will affect performance nevertheless.


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#286 JackFarmer

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 01:26 PM

@Springheel: You are right; the portals increase the performance: I just created a workaround to see whether it works: I will defintely reproduce it.

 

@Obsttorte: This sounds very interesting, is there a video tutorial available?



#287 Obsttorte

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 05:33 PM

Working with patches is covered by some wiki tutorials, and you will probably find some videos dealing with that matter. I covered it in my let's map videos iirc, but there is not one specific one that is focused on that matter. It is probably best if you play around with them (learning by doing, eh :) )


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#288 Springheel

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 06:33 PM

I'm not convinced it would be worth it for this scene unless you can't get good performance any other way.  Setting all the rocks to noshadows might be useful though.



#289 Bikerdude

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 10:00 AM

Setting all the rocks to noshadows might be useful though.

He could also set LOD bias  on the rocks like I did in Alberics curse.



#290 Springheel

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:58 PM

He could also set LOD bias  on the rocks like I did in Alberics curse.

 

I doubt that would be desirable, as it would mean there would be no visible border for people who set their LOD settings low enough.



#291 Springheel

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 11:05 AM

So, anyone still working on these? 



#292 JackFarmer

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 01:29 PM

Yes, I am, your videos have been (and are still) extremely helpful - see my post here, dated March, 16th:

 

http://forums.thedar...ht-now/page-306

 

...and I could use some help here:

 

http://forums.thedar...stions/page-327



#293 Amadeus

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 08:30 AM

So, anyone still working on these? 

Yep, it's a bit slow going right now as RL work projects have piled up lately, but I actually have a lot done and am pretty happy with what I have.


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#294 Darkness_Falls

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 11:55 PM

I stopped getting email notifications when there was a post in this thread as of the new year. I'll see if I can subscribe to it again. I might've accidentally unsubscribed, or temporarily did so on purpose... but I can't fathom that I would've done so on purpose. Either way, my apologies for not seeing these recent posts until now.

 

I actually loaded up DarkRadiant tonight for the first time in a long time. I'll need to get a foothold on the hotkeys and such again, but that part shouldn't take too long. I'm hoping life feels less hectic relatively soon, and I think it will. 

 

I remember my stumbling block was and will probably continue to be the sealing of rooms (...and gaps, like above a prefab window alcove that maybe doesn't have a top). For some reason, I don't think I have a good foothold on that concept yet. Are there more tutorials or examples I could look at on this topic? Maybe a number of different scenarios where we need to seal, and see how a veteran uses the brushes to seal and where they put them? Sealing/caulking is my Achilles heel. I think it was a big barrier to my progress before, to be honest.

 

Maybe it's just me, and if so, I'll just watch and re-watch the bit of training that is already available. (Note: I remember there's a Wiki. I will read through that, too.) But if it's not too much trouble and if others agree, I think I could use a training video dedicated exclusively to sealing stuff. Just bust through a number of common use cases, one right after the other. Cutting from one scenario to another, focusing just on sealing.

 

I know some of this info already exists, scattered across multiple videos in some way or another. Since it's my Kryptonite, though, I'm hoping pity can be taken :( I really believe a video dedicated to this would help a lot. And hopefully it wouldn't only help me. I'd want your time spent to be worthwhile... so if I'm the only one struggling with it, and the perception is that not many people ever will, then I can't ask you to bother.

 

Here are some scenario ideas for the video. In each case, it's okay -- and actually desirable -- to just jump to the part of the process where you have to seal (i.e., don't show you placing a prefab; just cut to the prefab already being placed and you have to now extend the seal or whatever). I'd want to see you physically make the seal in each case:

  1. Sealing a basic room. (I know it's fairly easy, but it's just a starting point.)
  2. Adding a window alcove prefab to the basic room, which causes the first seal to not be big enough. What to do?
  3. What if that window alcove prefab doesn't have a top on it (no top geo), as I think one or more of the alcoves are? Will that cause leaks? How to seal? How to fix that prefab geo?
  4. Adding a hallway or another room next to the room that is already sealed. What to do? 
  5. Have a room fully built that you think is fully sealed, but it leaks. Zero in on where the leak is and what is causing it, and fix it.
  6. Have a room fully built, then duplicate the room and move it over a few meters, making a gap. With two non-connected, individually sealed rooms, are you able to test the map, or does the test find leaks? How to fix?
  7. If a hallway is later placed between the two rooms, do we make a 3rd sealing, or extend the 1st sealing so it butts up to the 2nd sealing, or connect/bridge the 1st and 2nd sealing to create one long, continuous seal?
  8. Having a room beneath the first room. Extend the first seal, or make a brand new seal?
  9. Have an outdoor front lawn connected to door of first room. New seal? Connect seal?

Explain some useful factoids about seals, like:

  • Do we need to use grid size of 8 (nothing less) for sealing? What adverse things will happen if we use less than 8 and why? Sometimes I position walls, floors, and ceilings while using a grid size of less than 8. Does that lead to problems when trying to seal with 8?
  • Does a seal need to be within a centimeter, millimeter, or nanometer of floor, ceiling, or wall, otherwise it won't work? Or can it be 5 meters away and have the map still function without leaks? Are there drawbacks to putting it 5 meters away if you know the map won't be built out in that particular direction?
  • Other critical pieces of info that might be helpful, if any

I know these examples would just be guidelines and there will always be gray areas; that the solutions you do won't work in every situation. And your earlier videos have some of the use cases. But I think it would give me a better foundation of knowledge to work from if the info was more direct, and viewable as one focused video. And seeing more examples rather than copy/pastes of what earlier videos show will round out the education on sealing.

 

Is just a thought, if your or anyone has time and think it's worthwhile, SH...


Edited by Darkness_Falls, 04 June 2018 - 12:05 AM.


#295 Springheel

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 11:27 AM

I don't know that I'll have time to make any new videos in the forseeable future, but I can at least address some of the questions:

 

 

Do we need to use grid size of 8 (nothing less) for sealing? What adverse things will happen if we use less than 8 and why? Sometimes I position walls, floors, and ceilings while using a grid size of less than 8. Does that lead to problems when trying to seal with 8?

 

 

Grid size doesn't actually matter to the engine.  You will often hear people recommend using a large grid size, but this is only because gaps are easier for you to see that way.  If you are working on a grid size of .5, you might have a tiny .5 gap between two brushes that you don't notice.  If you're working at a grid of 8, any gap will be much easier to spot. But the engine doesn't care--a gap is a gap as far as it is concerned.
 

 

Does a seal need to be within a centimeter, millimeter, or nanometer of floor, ceiling, or wall, otherwise it won't work? Or can it be 5 meters away and have the map still function without leaks? Are there drawbacks to putting it 5 meters away if you know the map won't be built out in that particular direction?

 

 

It doesn't really matter to the engine how close the sealing brushwork is to the visible facade.  I find it is tidier to keep your sealing brushwork pretty close to the visible facade, but there is no requirement to do so. You could make a massive sealing box a mile wide for a single room, and the engine wouldn't care.  The only time it matters is if it gets in front of something the player should see.  If the player is inside a room and can never get outside, your sealing brushwork can be a million miles away.  But if you have a wall that the player can see from both sides, then the sealing brushwork should be in between.

 

{ I }

{ I }

{ I }

{ I }

 

If your sealing brushwork does get between the player and something they should see, it isn't the end of the world.  As long as there are no gaps the map will still run, but you'll just see your sealing brushwork instead of whatever you wanted the player to see.


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#296 Obsttorte

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 01:45 PM

In regards to the distance between sealing brushes and models it might be worth mentioning that you normally want to keep the connections between several "rooms" as small as possible. Keeping the sealing brushes close to models is one way to achieve this. If the sealing brushes are using caulk as surface texture, you can even let the brushes obstrude parts of the model (for example windows in wall pieces), as caulk does not contribute neither to the visible render nor the depth image as well.

 

Using larger grid sizes reduces the chance of small gaps that can be overseen easely as explained by Springheel. When taking a look at the missions made by others I often got the impression, that maps that are "off grid" in reference to larger grid sizes do behave worse performance wise, but as I can't explain why this should be the case it might be a false impression. Nevertheless it makes sense to stick to large grid scales as long as possible to easen and speed up your workflow.

 

What I've done to easen the sealing process is to use filters in DR and bind the to shortcuts. The most important ones are filters for all entities and patches, as both do not seal. Once they are activated I can only see worldspawn brushes, which are all sealing as long as they don't use a translucent or alpha-tested material. You may want to create filters for them, too, if you are using them extensively. Furthermore you should familiarize yourself with the usage of the pointfile feature. It is extremely helpful once you got into it.

 

The rest is a matter of practice.


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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
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Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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#297 R Soul

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 05:16 PM

Regarding the pointfile, I read a useful tip (I think it's on the wiki):

If the line (which shows the leak) doesn't make sense (i.e. it doesn't take you to an obvious leak) the problem could be a model whose origin is outside the sealing brushes.


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#298 Springheel

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 05:59 PM

Regarding the pointfile, I read a useful tip (I think it's on the wiki):

 

 

It's also in the lesson on leaks. :)

 

https://youtu.be/sz5u398AgP4?t=28m2s


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#299 Darkness_Falls

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 12:11 AM

Most excellent info. Thank you! 



#300 Obsttorte

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 03:14 AM

Regarding the pointfile, I read a useful tip (I think it's on the wiki):

If the line (which shows the leak) doesn't make sense (i.e. it doesn't take you to an obvious leak) the problem could be a model whose origin is outside the sealing brushes.

In such a case the red line will start at the origin of said model, which perfectly makes sense ;)


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