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#26 The Dark One

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:32 PM

Slower than I'd like, because I'm not sure if I want a (small) city area or just plopping you in a mansion's front yard. I do have an objective in mind (vandalizing a stained glass window), but I'm not sure how feasible that is.


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#27 Springheel

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:36 PM

I was thinking of having a street (or perhaps a thieves highway) with a few points of interest - accessible office of a guardhouse; or the garret room of a minor character.

 

The main objective will be in the house of a well-to-do merchant - not quite a mansion. So I'm thinking going over a high wall to a garden/yard, a biggish house, and a cellar area. Access points above and below.

 

Once in the house the thief will see there's more to the job than meets the eye...

 

That should be achievable, though you'll have to be careful with the city and house area...if both are rather large, that will take more than ten weeks to do.  As long as you can keep it to 15 rooms you should be fine.



#28 Springheel

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Posted 23 June 2017 - 07:37 PM

Slower than I'd like, because I'm not sure if I want a (small) city area or just plopping you in a mansion's front yard. I do have an objective in mind (vandalizing a stained glass window), but I'm not sure how feasible that is.

 

That's a creative idea.  There is such a thing as breakable glass, so while it would probably require a custom solution to accomplish, I could help you do it.


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#29 Springheel

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 04:18 PM

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The next video is up.  This one doesn't really ask you to do very much, beyond choosing which region you want to start mapping first. In the meantime, it's pretty important to understand how performance concerns should affect the way your map is designed.  This should also explain why we're going to think in terms of "rooms", even when outdoors.

 

 

 

In the next video, we'll start actually mapping in Dark Radiant.


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#30 Atomica

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:31 PM

Interesting. I always assumed that modern engines (and I still consider the Doom 3/TDM engine to incorporate at least some modern tech designs) have the ability to automatically cull blocked geometry from rendering. Of course they would never render anything outside of the players FOV, but I always thought that it should have been obvious to the engine that if a wall is in the player's way, then there's no reason to render anything beyond it. I don't know the exact technical term for this (something-occlusion-something?), but I guess I'm just surprised visportals are a thing.


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#31 Darkness_Falls

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:13 PM

Nice. Visleafs of goodness. Will keep them in mind when designing. In the interim, can you define what a "brush" is? You say a visleaf is created by brushes and visportals, but I'm not quite sure what a brush is. I will Wiki and/or Google it, but thought it might be good for you to offer your definition in this thread here. I think I kind've know, but want to be sure...

Thanks!


Edited by Darkness_Falls, 25 June 2017 - 08:13 PM.


#32 Springheel

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Posted 25 June 2017 - 10:12 PM

A brush is any prism you make by clicking and dragging in DR.  It's definitely not an intuitive name.

 

Models, patches, and entities are examples of things that are not brushes.

 

 

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#33 Destined

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 01:47 AM

I think, you could also say each entity of the classname "worldspawn" is a brush (Springheel, please correct me, if I am wrong). So you can check if an entity is a brush or not by selecting it in DR and look at the classname in the entity inspector.


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#34 Obsttorte

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 04:37 AM

I always thought that it should have been obvious to the engine that if a wall is in the player's way, then there's no reason to render anything beyond it.

And how does the engine know there is a wall? And if there is a wall, how does the engine know that it isn't blocked by another wall, so it could be ignored? Of course you can let the engine calculate all of this, but the more informations you provide beforehand the less work will be left to the engine. Don't forget that if you are aiming for a 60 FPS framerate you only have around 16 ms to complete the render (in addition to do the ai, input, sound, gui etc... stuff). ;)


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#35 Atomica

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 05:15 AM

And how does the engine know there is a wall? And if there is a wall, how does the engine know that it isn't blocked by another wall, so it could be ignored?

Ray casting?

 

I'm fine with the idea that if you provide more info to the engine about how the map is constructed, then the engine will be able to work more efficiently. It just seems primitive that engines can't work this particular problem out in an efficient, automated way (at least Doom 3 era). Knowing my luck I'll define a visportal/visleaf so badly that the engine will never render the room at all and I'll just see infinity. :)


Edited by Atomica, 26 June 2017 - 05:16 AM.

Oh my God! JC! A bomb!


#36 pusianka

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 06:15 AM

I feel like I came back to this game just in time to try again and maybe make something with dark radiant! Keep them coming Springheel!



#37 Destined

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 06:27 AM

Knowing my luck I'll define a visportal/visleaf so badly that the engine will never render the room at all and I'll just see infinity. :)

There is one way that this can actually happen. When you make a door and the visportal is not hidden in the door, but touches the surface, the visportal gets closed by closing the door and the closed visportal is visible. But as long as you follow Springheel's instructions, this will most likely not happen (at least I think taht this will also be covered later on). If you just build portals (without any fancy stuff around it), there is no way to close a visportal.



#38 RPGista

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 11:06 AM

These videos are extremely informative, well thoughtout and edited. Brilliant work.



#39 Obsttorte

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 03:08 PM

Ray casting?

 

[...] It just seems primitive that engines can't work this particular problem out in an efficient

That isn't a matter of primitive vs modern or how good the engine is. It is a matter of mathematical complexity. Specific algorithms take a specific amount of time, and ray-casting is definetely not one of the fast ones. The guys who where designing the idTech 4 engines thought that it would make sense to rely on the mapper concerning optimization, simple because humen can solve some problems much easier then any algorithm can. A computer can't see, so it can hardly judge on whether something should be visible or not. We do this on an everyday basis, so it appears easy to us, but it isn't.

 

Not all engines are working that way. Some are using different approaches. But if you go through the list of recently published AAA titles you will find a fair amount of games that were suffering performance issues after release, although they had a lot of time, money and well experienced programmers/game designers working on them. This alone should tell you that this is not an easy to solve task. ;)


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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
Let's Map TDM YouTube playlist: ObstlerTube
Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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#40 nbohr1more

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 03:44 PM

Heh, modern engines still suck at this. They contract out to middleware companies like Umbra: http://umbra3d.com/ for culling solutions.

 

Umbra process:

 

1) Convert geometry into multiple Voxel LOD levels

2) Compare lowest LOD for occlusion

3) Cull fully occluded geometry by voxel (cull whatever is in the occluded cubes)

4) If not fully occluded compare next lowest LOD levels for occlusion

5) Repeat 3 and 4 until the highest detail level is reached


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#41 Atomica

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 06:50 PM

OK, I am now more informed about the issues involved. Thanks for the technical info everyone.

 

I'm starting to think that a Requiem-style mission might take a little longer than I thought. :)


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#42 Springheel

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 08:57 PM

You would be looking at a year, at least.

#43 Atomica

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 10:11 PM

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You would be looking at a year, at least.

Yeah well I was joking anyway. I've got a 3 year old and a 2 month old. I'm not even sure I'll have the energy to do any major mapping, but damnit if I won't try!


Edited by Atomica, 26 June 2017 - 10:12 PM.

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Oh my God! JC! A bomb!


#44 DoubleOhZero

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:57 PM

===========================================================

 "Taking Back What's Yours"

A heist carefully planned for month goes awry when a competing professional thief beats our hero to the prize: an ancient sceptre. Incensed, our hero sets out to take back the loot, and tracks its location through the dark alleys of the City to the home of a humble scribe, whose scribal business is a useful front for laundering stolen goods. All our hero needs to do is break in, grab the sceptre and vanish into the night - after raiding the scribe's coffers, naturally.

 

The player begins in the narrow alley-garden of a craftsman's suburban home, before making his way into the house via the front door or a hidden back entrance. After a exploring the first floor and finding whatever loot is there, the player must make their way into the cellar and finish the raid by grabbing the sceptre before escaping.

 

Spoiler

===========================================================

 

I have set out to create a very limited FM with only a few rooms. The idea is to have a small but high-detail environment with a compelling plot, which sets the stage for a potential sequel (assuming I have time to devote to later projects).

 

I have spent a while working on this concept, but I am sure there are things that can be improved, or that I have over looked. Your comments are most welcome.

 

Floor plans and overview in the imgur album. Please excuse the staircase, but drawing 90-degree stairs in isometric is not easy! 

Be aware that all files contain spoilers as well.

 

http://imgur.com/gallery/Wnayn


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#45 Springheel

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:01 PM

Sounds like a very manageable project.  Lots of detail in those sketches.  One thing to be careful of is allowing enough space for AI to navigate around in any area where they could conceivably chase the player, but we'll talk more about that.



#46 Moonbo

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:12 PM

I'm starting to think that a Requiem-style mission might take a little longer than I thought. :)


Hehe, it took 10 months :-). I had a 2 year old and a full time job at the same time though, not sure I'd recommend it but it's possible.
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#47 Darkness_Falls

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 11:08 PM

SH, will there be a week (or the majority of a week) dedicated to sketching out/designing rooms and regions in much more detail, or is that something we should need to start now? (Sorry if I'm jumping ahead, but just wanted to make sure. I know there's no penalty for getting ahead, and will try to at times, but I don't want to swamp myself if that design-work is scheduled to happen the same week as getting a bunch of things into DarkRadiant, for instance. By me asking, it's also a way for me to gauge how much I should take the videos at face value. For now, I plan to take them at face value and just go along the journey they take me on, at the pace they dictate; and if I don't do any extra-curricular work or don't think outside the box, I will be fine.)

 

Please excuse the staircase, but drawing 90-degree stairs in isometric is not easy!

 

They're rickety stairs, as indicated; what do you expect them to look like?? ;-) hehe PS: Good start to things, DoubleOhZero!


Edited by Darkness_Falls, 27 June 2017 - 11:10 PM.


#48 Obsttorte

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 02:29 AM

It might be worthwhile to add the second video to the op, too, as all the other videos to come, so they are all in one spot and easely accessible (probably in spoilers, though, so the post don't gets too long).

 

I've also watched your videos (skipped through the first one but watched the second completely). Good work. I have some additions to the second video, if you don't mind :)

 

Spoiler

 

Keep up the good work.


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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
Let's Map TDM YouTube playlist: ObstlerTube
Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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#49 DoubleOhZero

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 03:36 AM

...allowing enough space for AI to navigate around in any area where they could conceivably chase the player...

I will double check this.

 

Good start to things, DoubleOhZero!

Thanks!



#50 Springheel

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 08:13 AM

SH, will there be a week (or the majority of a week) dedicated to sketching out/designing rooms and regions in much more detail, or is that something we should need to start now? (Sorry if I'm jumping ahead, but just wanted to make sure. I know there's no penalty for getting ahead, and will try to at times, but I don't want to swamp myself if that design-work is scheduled to happen the same week as getting a bunch of things into DarkRadiant, for instance. By me asking, it's also a way for me to gauge how much I should take the videos at face value. For now, I plan to take them at face value and just go along the journey they take me on, at the pace they dictate; and if I don't do any extra-curricular work or don't think outside the box, I will be fine.)

 

The next lesson is going to start by talking about sketching out the main region of your map, but there's not going to be much instructional stuff about it.  I would say feel free to start working on that now.  Everyone has different preferences for how detailed they like their planning sketches to be.  Just keep in mind the room limit when sketching out rooms, especially for the mansion area, which could easily get out of control.


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