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Thief 4 - That Bad?


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#101 Judith

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 08:26 AM

Using controller in FPS is just a skill. Unless you're a competitive/pro player, you'll do fine, e.g. in all single player games, regardless of difficulty level. Hell, I used X360 controller in Unreal Tournament 3 matches and still managed to end up in top five. I bet a console veteran who plays e.g. Battlefield every day would still kick my, your, or anybody else's ass here, with a controller, even if we were using a mouse and keyboard.



#102 Abusimplea

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 10:56 AM

Using controller in FPS is just a skill. Unless you're a competitive/pro player, you'll do fine, e.g. in all single player games, regardless of difficulty level.

Mouse and keyboard are just more easy to use than a controller for FPS. Of course you can play them with a controller. You also could play them with an eye tracker or pedals and a steering wheel. It certainly needs more skill to do it that way.

I could use a screwdriver with nails or a hammer for screws. Depending on the materials and my skill it might even work. But it would certainly not be the right tool for the job.

 

The thing with keyboard is that is has tons of buttons that can be bound to functions or used to enter text. Most games could be designed so that they use just a minimum amount of buttons. But a lot of them can utilize quite a lot of them. That is the reason for controllers getting a lot more buttons since the arcade games era. Also you can enter text with a keyboard and text chat is the least bandwidth-hungry way of communication in multiplayer.

The mouse (and its reversed version - the trackball) is the most precise pointing device after the touch pen. You certainly can point with aan analog stick too. But it is harder to use that as precise as the mouse.

Keyboard and mouse are the more versatile, and for some genres more appropriate, tool. There are certainly genres that really profit from two analog sticks too (the Zelda example was rather arbitrary because certainly that would work even better with keyboard and mouse if they just had implemented proper support for them).

 

Where the controller really shines is when it comes to space requirements. Keyboard and mouse need space on a table (or possibly laps when using a trackball) - a controller does not. That might be the real reason why consoles are still used with controllers only. Consoles are often placed in the living room where the tables are too low for comfortably using a keyboard and mouse. The PC traditionally sits on or below a table - so there is plenty of space to place a keyboard and mouse (and other input devices).

 

P.S.: I would love to see eye tracking support becomming mainstream in PC gaming - in combination with VR and a threadmill.



#103 Judith

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 11:07 AM

Mouse and keyboard are just more easy to use than a controller for FPS.

 

Initially, yes. But learning how to use controller is neither super convoluted, nor unintuitive or hard. It's like learning to ride a bike, you do it, and you remember it permanently. I think my first X360 FPS game was The Darkness. I had some difficulty at first, but I don't think I played another FPS game without X360 controller since then. And yes, one important thing is that you can play it on a couch, or in your favorite comfortable chair, not at the desk you've been sitting at all day.

 

Edit: also, using keyboard to text while playing is more like dancing while reading. I'm glad that we have voice chat or contextual action menus for that.


Edited by Judith, 29 August 2017 - 11:09 AM.


#104 bobrpggamer

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 02:43 PM

The mouse (and its reversed version - the trackball) is the most precise pointing device after the touch pen. You certainly can point with aan analog stick too. But it is harder to use that as precise as the mouse.

That's what i think, if you have played a few FPS's with the mouse to aim, it is instant, the controller would have to track and may go to far up and you may have to bring it down a bit to shoot. i tried using the Xbox controller to play a freind in halo and it was way to hard to control aim, and this is about aim and maybe just walking.

 

Oh and I love steam for a lost of reasons but this is one I cannot stand:

"This game use to be one of my favorite games but they have updated the game and for me ruined it. You use to be able to sneak around and kill enemies without them ever finding you. Now if you kill someone and the AI ememies find a body, they pretty much know your exact location. Like... I killed somone from 400 Meters away with a silenced sniper rifle and like 12 guys walked directly to my location... I was on a Mountain under a bush... what is that crap? They didn't search... they walked directly too me... I wasn't discovered or being engaged... they were simply "hunting" me and automaticly knew my exact location and that to me ruined the game entirely.

I highy recommand not getting this game. Unless the problems they have are fixed because right now it's simply worse then a unrelaisitc arcade shooter. So... yeah, don't waste your $60 on this crap for now."

Sometimes updates are not welcome but you buy the game at it's current patch level, so even if you turn off keep this game updated you will buy the game at the latest patch, and that's why I would sometimes like to buy a game at 1.0 and without patch 1.5. That's the only thing that bugs me about steam.

 

when I was playing the second Dead Island and I was fooling around taking some loot to the store and I had an option for a "fabulous pick axe" or something and I could not understand if this was a joke or what and found out later it was the latest patch. This is minor but still I would rather not chop a Zombie in half with a "Fabulous Machete".

 

I feel we are all arguing, but I guess that's how we learn. Still everyone is entitled to their opinion. unless I said that Thief 5 is coming out and is being made by some Looking Glass veterans - then I should be though of as an idiot with a stupid idea - not that I am not an idiot with some stupid ideas but we all have our weakness and mine unlike Superman and Kryptinite or however it is spelled, my weakness is radiation it make me sick as a dog, and that was a stupid comment, but it;s true unfortunately.

 

Judith I honestly hope you have more time to play sooner than later, I feel some kind words are better than an argument once in a while. Even if I did not like almost all Pagan missions on all 3 Thief's, I liked the Hammer's and the goofy guards in most places and even Mission 7 in the weird house that took me a while to get my bearing in, maybe a long while.


Edited by bobrpggamer, 29 August 2017 - 05:01 PM.


#105 Judith

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 01:39 AM

Hey, thanks for the kind words, Bob :) But I'm okay here; I like the way I play games now, and I like them shorter, like 4-8 hour experience instead of 30-50. With one main job and second hobby/job, I prefer to spend more of my spare time with friends and family, and during colder months, I'd rather do some modelling and mapping for The Dark Mod. So it's more the question of priorities, where creating something is actually more fun for you than playing.



#106 bobrpggamer

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 05:26 PM

 

Hey, thanks for the kind words, Bob :) But I'm okay here; I like the way I play games now, and I like them shorter, like 4-8 hour experience instead of 30-50. With one main job and second hobby/job, I prefer to spend more of my spare time with friends and family, and during colder months, I'd rather do some modelling and mapping for The Dark Mod. So it's more the question of priorities, where creating something is actually more fun for you than playing

Oh yeah I forgot most people have lives, I kind of envy you there.

 

I would like to get back to modeling and designing, I have 2 projects in order: My Aluminum arcade Cabinet - 6 months of work with animation in which I am not skilled in and my custom Aluminum case for 3 X-Key systems for Flight Sims that holds 3 X-key 60 key label-able programmable keys with backlightng. you just unscrew the top plate drop all 3 X-Key 60 keypads and with an adjustable way to raise the panel up to 45 degrees and built in 3 port USB hub. This might sound lame but as you yourself mentioned flight sims require more keyboard commands than almost all other genre's of games, so with this you would have about 100 labeled keys to customize your flight sim commands. with the other controllers Joystick, Throttle and Rudder you would never need the keyboard at all.

 

http://xkeys.com/xkeys/xk60.php


Edited by bobrpggamer, 30 August 2017 - 10:15 PM.


#107 bobrpggamer

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:23 AM

After being hopelessly addicted to 7 Days To Die yesterday I spent about 20 hours on it so I have forgotten Thief 4 for the most part and I can just think of a sorry end to one of the best games I have ever played - yes Thief 1 & 2.

 

I can only count a few games that had such a major impact on gaming and Thief is on the top of that list. I also cannot think of a better game series to make fan missions either in DarkMod now and not going back to Thief3 editor.



#108 Judith

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:42 AM

That said, I wonder if there's a chance to get Thief 3 source code, so someone like Le Corbeau (or Snobel for that matter) could start making upgrades and improvements.



#109 bobrpggamer

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 06:24 AM

That said, I wonder if there's a chance to get Thief 3 source code, so someone like Le Corbeau (or Snobel for that matter) could start making upgrades and improvements.

That's far over my head, and asking Eidos or whoever for it will probably be ignored. Thief 3 edit was easier with scrips and linking things, that's what gave me a hard time in DarkMod, I had a lot of questions about importing max objects and scripting, and this site helped me gracefully back in I think 2010.

 

I really should download some missions here and check them out, when I was working on Bafford place I did not want to see other people's missions because I wanted my own ideas and I wanted mine to be completely original and not adding other peoples ideas in my mission - this is just me, I refuse to look at other peoples 7 Days Later custom buildings that have been made and are posted online for the same reason.

 

Where are the Through the Looking Glass guys at now anyway? They seem to have disappeared after Thief 2, but like I said I think our original Thief days are over. The charm they had is gone and even if it has the best 3D engine, artists and writers I think they would put too many new open world ideas in it and it may not work out anyway.



#110 New Horizon

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:40 PM

A lot of Looking Glass Studios people are with Otherside Entertainment. It's an LGS reunion of sorts.

#111 Atomica

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:06 PM

It's getting harder and harder to get the source code for commercial games these days. Part of the problem is that publishers don't give a shit and would rather you focus your attention on their latest game, but it's also a case that even if they were willing, a lot of games these days use middleware - software that's licensed from other companies to provide important features, such as a physics engine, or an animation system or AI system, or anything else the developers of the main game didn't directly make themselves. Unless your codebase is 100% your own work (and it's extremely rare for this to be the case), it's quite difficult to open source it unless it was arranged to be open sourced later down the track and the licensing contracts were created with this in mind.

 

Hell, John Carmack/iD software traditionally released the source for their engines once they were no longer commercially profitable, but the Doom 3 engine was a bit tricky because he had to rewrite the shadowing code which was partially licensed by Creative. He still bothered to do it though, which is why The Dark Mod is freely available. It was however the first major bit of middleware that needed dealing with for their engines.


Edited by Atomica, 12 September 2017 - 09:09 PM.

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#112 Judith

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 01:36 AM

DX:IW and Thief 3 engine uses like first, super-buggy version of Havok, which was then bought out by Nvidia, afair. Renderer is 100% custom mess, not sure about the rest. And yeah, editing was easier with UE 2.x frontend, but you couldn't do much about bugs. IdTech is more like "editing for programming geeks", but we have people here who can fix bugs and upgrade things. It's not a zero sum game, but the time you wasted in T3Ed looking for workarounds, here you'll spend it on learning scripting. You might not like it, but at least your efforts are more constructive and creative.



#113 bobrpggamer

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:22 AM

 

DX:IW and Thief 3 engine uses like first, super-buggy version of Havok, which was then bought out by Nvidia, afair. Renderer is 100% custom mess, not sure about the rest. And yeah, editing was easier with UE 2.x frontend, but you couldn't do much about bugs. IdTech is more like "editing for programming geeks", but we have people here who can fix bugs and upgrade things. It's not a zero sum game, but the time you wasted in T3Ed looking for workarounds, here you'll spend it on learning scripting. You might not like it, but at least your efforts are more constructive and creative.

When I said I stopped working on my FMs first for Thief 3 and early in on DarkMod it had nothing to do with the Mod or editor I had personal things going on so I stopped.

 

[OK, every time I work on a project be it 3DS Max, DarkMod or Thief 3 edit - take this how you want but it is the real reason for stopping - I would hear that I make my friends and my people "look stupid". I never believed everyone when it was said but then out of decency I still quit. Who are my people, I have not been told, but we did not grow up like everyone else - "think "we don't need an education" from Floyd. I like to think being kept down by whoever, for whatever.]

 

OK I had to say it. I never wanted to quit working on these projects but after hearing and seeing the above over and over again I started to believe it and I did not want to be a F***ed up person to my friends and or family or whatever.

 

I hope someday I could be allowed to work on some projects but for now I can pretty much start and then before long I feel guilty again.

 

Now take the above as a sort of a confession, or maybe I'm insane I don't know. what I do know is that with practice the Darkmod editor is fine, and I have no complaint other than I have not used it for a while as was said previously. The reason I made the videos of my work was because i may not finish them.



#114 Judith

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:43 AM

So, you have some kind of social pressure related to editing / real-life balance problems. I don't have such pressure, and tend to lose myself in such work completely, but I also recognize this isn't exactly healthy kind of passion. You can always have a design doc and a dev schedule / diary, if you have less time for editing. This should keep you more focused on your milestones and your goal, even with long breaks between editing.



#115 bobrpggamer

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:55 PM

 

So, you have some kind of social pressure related to editing / real-life balance problems. I don't have such pressure, and tend to lose myself in such work completely, but I also recognize this isn't exactly healthy kind of passion. You can always have a design doc and a dev schedule / diary, if you have less time for editing. This should keep you more focused on your milestones and your goal, even with long breaks between editing.

This social thing is completely brought up by other people and now it just renominates in my mind, I easily get lost in my work as well and it becomes my entire focus as well. I have only a small idea of who my true friends are - if they are - but I know they have helped me at times so I feel a bit guilty now when I use my talent with 3D content creation and my clever ideas and somehow it make my them feel dumb. I had a person back in 2004 when I was working on my 3DS Max art gallery say "all your really doing is just making them look really stupid, do you want them to hate you" also "yeah that looks really cool but you make us look retarded" from 2000 working on my clacking balls thing, these like I said renominate in my mind.

 

You do not need to think about this, it is my own problem. I just wanted to come clean with the true reason I stopped my projects.

 

I hate end with saying this but it is true.


Edited by bobrpggamer, 15 September 2017 - 07:09 PM.


#116 Atomica

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 11:38 PM

Because of this thread, I'm actually replaying Thief 4 again (played it to completion once before). I'm actually kinda enjoying it. I like the atmosphere and the high visual/audio production values do add to the game, even if there are significant issues with the writing. I don't even have a problem with the lack of jumping, because it seems that anywhere I need to mantle/jump across, I can do so and haven't really noticed anywhere that I wanted to jump to (and should be able to) that the game's prevented me of doing so.

 

Having said that, there's something I must recommend about this game that I think anyone who's considering it should try out. You can select a custom difficulty, which involves choosing a base difficulty (Master being the obvious one because it's the hardest), and then enabling or disabling various options to adjust how the game will play out. Some things I recommend changing is to disable combat takedowns (so only stealthly, undetected takedowns allowed), possibly make resources more expensive so you don't take them for granted, but above all, DISABLE FOCUS ENTIRELY. There's an option to toggle it in the game options, but if you disable it as a custom option in the difficulty settings before starting a game, it is enforced and you can't re-enable it later in the same game. The game is a bit stupid and sometimes gives up tips on how to use focus and how you should press your assigned focus key even when it's completely disabled though.

 

I cannot emphasize how much the game changes and becomes better by not having focus as a tool. The biggest change is that you now have to use your eyes and observe the environment properly, rather than have details like hand prints glow on walls to show where secrets are, or where traps and their triggers are hidden. It feels more classic thief and not like you have some sort of superpower. The more I play stealth games, the more I feel that its the limitations the player character has that makes a game more enjoyable rather than being given lots of powers and innate capabilities. The more the player has to use their wits and powers of observation to survive, the more interesting (and tense) a stealth game gets.


Oh my God! JC! A bomb!





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