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#26 Abusimplea

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 03:33 PM

@MirceaKitsune:
The GPL does indeed take side when it comes to monetization.
The GPL explicitly allows monetization of the work and all deriving work and forbids relicensing under any more restrictive license!

#27 AluminumHaste

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 07:53 PM

I always knew this would come up one day lol.

I'm totally with Grayman on this one, the topic of money has come and gone many times now, and for good reason.

So you've asked, and had a pretty strong response against it from several devs here.

 

Now, are you going to respect the mod and it's Authors or are you going to do what you wanted to do anyways I guess is the question.

 

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#28 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 08:33 PM

I always knew this would come up one day lol.

I'm totally with Grayman on this one, the topic of money has come and gone many times now, and for good reason.

So you've asked, and had a pretty strong response against it from several devs here.

 

Now, are you going to respect the mod and it's Authors or are you going to do what you wanted to do anyways I guess is the question.

 

I'm thinking of an in-between solution at this point. More specifically a version of #2 from the list in my first post, which I imagine people will agree is respectful enough toward everyone.

 

In a nutshell, if I decide to go with this option which seems like the most likely outcome: I won't be making any paid Patreon posts involving TDM like I do with other projects, no such thing as patron only sneak-peaks or other exclusive content... instead I'll only be publishing free posts to let people know what I'm working on, which are literally the same ones I also put on other blogs like Tumblr and even my mod's thread in this forum. I think this is legitimately a perfect solution, since I'm not even doing anything more than to post openly on the site as I do on any blog at the same time! The only other option is to censor myself and not be allowed to even talk about my own work on my Patreon page... this would be ridiculous and even venture into the realm of censorship, same as saying "don't talk about your mod on Deviantart".

 

If I'm going to spend hours of my life working on this, I'm going to spend less hours working on other projects. If I spend less hours working on other projects, people who support me may think I'm no longer doing anything. If people who support me think I'm no longer doing anything, they'll stop supporting me. And if people stop supporting me, I'm left without any income and it's (real life) game over. A simple "free project / public posts only" regime for TDM mods should fix every controversy, while letting me work on my mod alongside other projects without having to discriminate as much.



#29 Judith

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 02:25 AM

IMO the thing that begs the question it the first place is why do you want so desperately to charge people money for every fan work you do?

 

This is a terrible and unsafe business model, as it puts enormous pressure on you; it requires huge discipline, as long as you're trying to be an honest and give people what they pay you for. Most of us have regular jobs and treat this as a long-term hobby. Or there are people like Epi, who have jobs and try to break into the industry, but noone here is selling anything. And Epi actually makes content which can be described as "triple A" quality stuff.



#30 Sotha

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 05:10 AM


Perhaps someone else will present a convincing view why it would be overwhelmingly detrimental. I do not see it at this time.

 

 

 

Yeah, I guess grayman did present a convincing view. I'm with him on this one.


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#31 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 07:52 AM

I do not see how it would have been detrimental to anyone: No one and nothing in the TDM community would have been in any way shape or form prejudiced, by me taking donations for my own creations or adaptations on a page that people could have simply never known existed. The only thing this did was to guarantee slower progress for the mod, which is something I'm sure many people here will like when it's ready... in practice the community has delayed content it could have had a bit sooner, that's the only loss involved. I often wish the TDM crew could have been more like that of other FOSS games I grew up with, which have in several ways been slightly more open... that however I can't complain much about, at the end of the day this community offered us an amazing project as well as some great support for it, and I'm sure as heck grateful for that no matter what.

 

In any case it's settled then; No paid patron posts or any kind of exclusive access, just me mirroring the same posts I put on every other blog and gallery. I'll probably write up a post to explain the situation first, and clarify that all my TDM works are to be considered side projects and not something I'm being exclusively supported for. This is the best I can possibly do... like I said people need to see me working on all the things I'm going to pour my time into, while at the same time I'm not going to outright censor myself on my own page as far as mere public notifications go.

 

An important note however, which affects my mod regardless of me even having a Patreon: If and when the mod becomes self contained years from now, it may become its own independent entity... meaning a bundle of idTech 4 + TDM gamecode + mod assets (all GPL licensed). I may personally decide never to go further as far as donations are concerned, but I won't have control over what people do with potential forks of my mod or fan missions they make for it; I want this mod to have no strings attached and be as free as the GPL license says it is, exactly like Xonotic which I grew up playing and contributing to. This is part of how I've always dreamed of making this project, since years ago when I began envisioning it... as such I hope people can at least accept the game code being treated in accordance to its GPL nature and seen as an open component just like the idTech engine.



#32 Abusimplea

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 09:15 AM

It really surprised me, how non-FOSS the mindset in this thread is. TDM would not exist without id Tech 4. And its engine code would not grow without a free license on the engine. There are tons of licenses that id software could have chosen for that engine. I doubt, that they chose a free and viral one in accident.

Please all consider, why they chose one, that allows game devs, game designers and mod makers to make money by doing what they like most - working on games. I would do it if i could.

 

The site, devs and modders should have gotten donation buttons from the start. But it is not too late. Just get your buttons and arrive in the present where people are not ashamed anymore for getting donations for good work they donated to the community.


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#33 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 10:29 AM

It really surprised me, how non-FOSS the mindset in this thread is. TDM would not exist without id Tech 4. And its engine code would not grow without a free license on the engine. There are tons of licenses that id software could have chosen for that engine. I doubt, that they chose a free and viral one in accident.

Please all consider, why they chose one, that allows game devs, game designers and mod makers to make money by doing what they like most - working on games. I would do it if i could.

 

The site, devs and modders should have gotten donation buttons from the start. But it is not too late. Just get your buttons and arrive in the present where people are not ashamed anymore for getting donations for good work they donated to the community.

 

Well said. Valve Software is one of the few companies I actually appreciate, as they've had a culture of making every Quake engine available under the GPL license. Thanks to them we have TheDarkMod, Xonotic, Warsow, OpenArena, and more that use their engines.

 

I'm not sure how much donate buttons do nowadays. I'd advice them to get Patreon like me, which is one of the most ingenious systems in this regard. Unfortunately it is too late in some aspects, as most of the vanilla assets are already CC-BY-NC-SA licensed so they couldn't receive donations for those assets at least... of course the community changing its overall attitude toward the subject is never too late.



#34 AluminumHaste

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 11:24 AM

 

Well said. Valve Software is one of the few companies I actually appreciate, as they've had a culture of making every Quake engine available under the GPL license. Thanks to them we have TheDarkMod, Xonotic, Warsow, OpenArena, and more that use their engines.

 

I think you mean iD Software....


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#35 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 11:26 AM

I think you mean iD Software....

 

I just realized I was confusing Valve with iD Software and have no idea why.



#36 New Horizon

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:37 PM

The site, devs and modders should have gotten donation buttons from the start. But it is not too late. Just get your buttons and arrive in the present where people are not ashamed anymore for getting donations for good work they donated to the community.


Oh, give me a break. Just because a group of creators share a different set of core values does not mean they're stuck in the past. I'm so sick of consumer culture. Nobody here is stuck in the past, or afraid to make money. What we do here is a choice. Turning it into a money making venture is completely against the spirit of why we did this on the first place. By the community, for the community. If people would like to donate and raise some cash to cover our server yearly costs...we could probably discuss that, but this is not a for profit project.
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#37 Obsttorte

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:41 PM

Oh, give me a break. Just because a group of creators share a different set of core values does not mean they're stuck in the past. I'm so sick of consumer culture. Nobody here is stuck in the past, or afraid to make money. What we do here is a choice. Turning it into a money making venture is completely against the spirit of why we did this on the first place. By the community, for the community. If people would like to donate and raise some cash to cover our server yearly costs...we could probably discuss that, but this is not a for profit project.

Amen


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#38 wesp5

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 01:03 PM

 

I just realized I was confusing Valve with iD Software and have no idea why.

You shouldn't, especially with this topic because Valve already tried to monetize the mod scene multiple times and will probably keep trying...



#39 Abusimplea

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 01:21 PM

What we do here is a choice.

Of course it is. And it is your right to not take any money for anything. My text might have sounded like i would try to force you to take donations. Sorry for that. I did not mean to force you to do so.

I merely think, it would be a good idea to do it. You obviously don't and that is fine. You are completely free to not take money for anything. I am with the GPL on this one: It merely allows monetization and prohibits the prohibition of monetization. It does not force you to monetize...



#40 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 02:07 PM

Oh, give me a break. Just because a group of creators share a different set of core values does not mean they're stuck in the past. I'm so sick of consumer culture. Nobody here is stuck in the past, or afraid to make money. What we do here is a choice. Turning it into a money making venture is completely against the spirit of why we did this on the first place. By the community, for the community. If people would like to donate and raise some cash to cover our server yearly costs...we could probably discuss that, but this is not a for profit project.

 

The irony here is that, despite being the one who made this thread and is looking to use Patreon, I can totally relate to this perspective as well. Hell I still remember the days when I wanted to use CC-BY-NC-SA for my own shitty art, because I used to think "all money is evil" (yeah in my case it actually went all the way there).

 

What changed over time with me is making a distinction between nice and fair ways of making money versus corporate and corrupt ones; I still hate the idea of commercialism when it means putting the end product behind a paywall, not to mention all the disgusting things corrupt corporations do to others... however I see taking donations for an already free product as a perfectly innocent thing, as that only acts to boost the author whom you know will be doing the work anyway because they like it. This is the case now more than ever, since I've been relying on those donations exclusively to live given I never had a job, Patreon happened to arrive and help me at the exact time my father said "I no longer care"... that goes into other stories of course but just for reference on why I see things differently now that I got to experience another situation.



#41 AluminumHaste

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 02:39 PM

Maybe I'm not understanding what you want to do, so I'm going to try and get what you're trying to do.

From my undertanding, you are working on a mod which is based on TDM.

You have created some assets and are slowly going to be replacing the core TDM assets with your own. In the meantime you are looking to get paid via donations on Patreon for your continued work.

Is there anything else?


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#42 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 02:57 PM

Maybe I'm not understanding what you want to do, so I'm going to try and get what you're trying to do.

From my undertanding, you are working on a mod which is based on TDM.

You have created some assets and are slowly going to be replacing the core TDM assets with your own. In the meantime you are looking to get paid via donations on Patreon for your continued work.

Is there anything else?

 

The term "based on TDM" depends on how you look at it; Some could interpret that as "you took TDM and based your own mod on it", which would be incorrect (possibly excluding the game code later) since I'm not taking or touching anything from TDM core. The more correct term is "you've made your own mod by yourself, which runs on top of TDM like TDM runs on top of idTech 4", since my mod is simply a series of drag-and-drop pk4 files containing original definitions and assets that will eventually offer replacements to all of the builtins enough to become an own game.

 

With this correction though, that would be it. If people are interested in the mod itself, I can gladly explain more of what I plan to add and how I intend it to work.


Edited by MirceaKitsune, 30 September 2017 - 03:00 PM.


#43 AluminumHaste

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:05 PM

Okay, so are you going to do as Grayman mentioned and write your own code for the AI, scripts etc? As that's a HUGE portion of the time that went into this mod. Yes the assets contribute more MB of space on your hard drive, but I would argue that the coding side was just as big/important as the assets.

Will your game/mod be utilizing the AI that the TDM devs have been working on for the last 10 years?


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#44 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:27 PM

Okay, so are you going to do as Grayman mentioned and write your own code for the AI, scripts etc? As that's a HUGE portion of the time that went into this mod. Yes the assets contribute more MB of space on your hard drive, but I would argue that the coding side was just as big/important as the assets.

Will your game/mod be utilizing the AI that the TDM devs have been working on for the last 10 years?

 

I don't plan to write new code, except for adding scripts that extend functionality and add new features I'll be needing. That's the GPL licensed game code, which is the only part of TDM the mod will be relying on permanently, and part of why I chose TDM rather than another engine. There will also be reliance on some of the vanilla assets (animations, voices, so on) but this is only temporary until replacements for all of them are made someday.

 

Even so, the mod is not distributed with the TDM game code either. If and when it will become self sustained, I will consider the option of packaging a standalone version as well, however that's years from now at best.



#45 LDAsh

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 09:32 PM

Legally, there doesn't seem to be an issue with collecting charity for the project, but you just need to weigh the few dollars you might get from people against the potential damage it might do your reputation from those who might have otherwise helped later on in more substantial ways.



#46 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 07:29 AM

Legally, there doesn't seem to be an issue with collecting charity for the project, but you just need to weigh the few dollars you might get from people against the potential damage it might do your reputation from those who might have otherwise helped later on in more substantial ways.

 

Strictly legally speaking, the only thing you aren't allowed to sell or take donations for in either original or modified form are the CC-BY-NC-SA assets, which again my mod will only temporarily reference at runtime and never in any way touch or distribute otherwise. Both the idTech 4 engine and TDM game code are otherwise GPL... since the assets of my mod will themselves be GPL licensed everything will ultimately form an 100% GPL entity :P

 

My reputation wobbles from place to place... not because I've done something wrong per say, but for other reasons more into the territory of "some people like some things that others don't" which really doesn't matter here and now. I'm just trying not to make members of the community feel bad and respect their wishes, since I legitimately don't seek to be ungrateful especially to the creators of the only FOSS game of this theme and quality on the internet... at the same time however I'm having to find a system that will work for me as well so that I can in fact develop this mod. Like I said I found one that should definitely be respectful while helping keep the mod a relative priority, so now I can finally focus more on the actual mod itself.



#47 Abusimplea

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 03:45 PM

Some of the TDM community are rather extreme in that regard. They will not be willing to accept, that anything they built touches anything that touches money - regardless how and why the money is there. No reasoning will change that. As i understand your situation, you would only be able to please them by not building your mod (or by trying it without monetization and never finishing it because of practical constraints - so yeah, not building it).

 

I would expect, that they had fun building their stuff and had fun using the result. In the end it is about fun (we are still speaking about games after all). It is hard to have fun, while starving and it is much harder to get anything done if most of the time and energy has to be spend to make ends meet. So go ahead and build it. Use time and energy for the real goal. Get paid for what is fun for you and brings fun to others instead of wasting time and energy for some bullshit job.

It is not a zero-sum game. If you do it no one really loses anything but you and the future players win.

 

Reputation-wise, non-extremists will in general not care about whether you accept donations or not.


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#48 AluminumHaste

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 06:18 PM

Part of the problem is that he hasn't clearly articulated what he's doing, so either he's being vague and obtuse on purpose, or he doesn't really know either.

As was already pointed out, the code behind the mod is a massive chunk of time and effort, the assets are the other part. If all you're doing is replacing the sounds, textures, and models with your own and asking for donations, all the while using TDMs core structure, well that's a problem.
The fact that you'd rather not get a real job speaks volumes as to your intentions.

So if all you need is a Foss engine, the doom 3 engine is ready for you. What is in TDM that you need?

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#49 MirceaKitsune

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 06:30 PM

Part of the problem is that he hasn't clearly articulated what he's doing, so either he's being vague and obtuse on purpose, or he doesn't really know either.

As was already pointed out, the code behind the mod is a massive chunk of time and effort, the assets are the other part. If all you're doing is replacing the sounds, textures, and models with your own and asking for donations, all the while using TDMs core structure, well that's a problem.
The fact that you'd rather not get a real job speaks volumes as to your intentions.

So if all you need is a Foss engine, the doom 3 engine is ready for you. What is in TDM that you need?

  1. I've already done my best to explain what my mod is about and how it's structured. I do not understand what I'm being vague with in your view.
  2. Technically yes, replacing the sounds / textures / models is what I'm doing. Though in the bigger picture I'll be technically creating a new project and independent game.
  3. From TDM I only plan to use the GPL licensed scripts, as they already provide the exact mechanics I plan to maintain in the mod. Indeed I'm using the same core structure, especially now at the start.
  4. The fact that I'd rather not get a "real job" speaks more about my life and my abilities at this point in time, not about any presumably bad intentions you might be implying.


#50 Springheel

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 06:44 PM

Get paid for what is fun for you and brings fun to others instead of wasting time and energy for some bullshit job.

 

 

Where is this wonderful land where donations for working on a mod can replace the income of some bullshit job?


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