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#1 teh_saccade

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 03:42 AM

Rant time, sorry. No spoilers. You can add those biker, if you'd like me ignored or it's too many words.

TL;DR - whine, cry, y u do dis, pls slow down after this one - it's mint already, don't you reckon?


Guys....

I know people here don't look upon me particularly well and that I'm a difficult person.

Please, please, please stop updating the game and DR so often... it's like every time I get close to figuring something out - something is changed and, after going through a few dozen old maps... testing out and seeing what to do next on them (I paint a few pictures at the same time) things don't work any more. Shaders repathed, textures missing or depreciated or repathed, mechanics changed. I've ALWAYS used stock to avoid having to go through the lengthy process of including a whole bunch of stuff that is not necessary.

Now there's model errors on some maps I've left to finish (ok... a year...) later.

I'd really like to finish a decent map without it being put into a state whereby it's easier to delete it all and start again than go in and make a whole bunch of changes.

It is demoralising that it's proving so difficult to contribute.



Just gone back over a few years worth of maps and most of them throw errors or are missing shaders or models or have pathing errors...

Latest updates have:

1 - destroyed every trap and agility challenge I've designed by removing damage from movers (as I'm sure you're aware, as I say it nearly every 2nd post in this forum because that really screwed that mission).
2 - has destroyed the nurbs tutorial map by removing or repathing the textures, so it throws shader errors. Can fix, I guess. Pretty sure all my notes are on that blog, if I can remember the name...
3 - a lot of my older maps now have pathing errors for stock models/textures/things/stuff that must've been repathed or depreciated or something...
4 - even the startmap/levelname from the wiki doesn't work now, the error list in DR is huge. Missing models, textures, shader issues, etc.
5 - destroyed my camera system, that was the basis for a lot of neat stuff, by somehow changing how multiple portalsky and portalsky info works. At least a few things still work...
6 - rendered ... a whole bunch of missions that were "getting there" totally FUBAR.
7 - provided discouragement to start mapping in earnest (which is daunting - there's several people who've been here for donkey's that are mappers but don't have a map published), in case there's another update that totally wrecks yet another WIP or effect or trick or concept (rev's no longer affected by holy water?? They're undead, wtf... goodbye necromancer's tower with cool, mechanical and illusion/op-art artistic effects and a few glitchy/hacky tricks - no way is that gonna be fun now if it's empty or filled with those bastards)

 

Every change, for the past few years, screws over anything ambitious or that pushes a boundary to TDM's mapping extent or thwarts some solution to the problem of "how do I do this..? ahhh, I can do this...".

This means I can either:

1 - make another mansion/city mission that's the same as every other mansion/city mission from prefabs and limp pretense, no time to develop a full campaign or character or story 'cos list.
2 - rush a tiny mission - I don't do one night stands. We go away for the weekend or the week to somewhere neither of us has been and see you again next time (I don't want to know what you do in between).

or
3 - wait until everyone's gotten bored of updating TDM and DR for a bit and wandered off so I can finish a mission that might have taken since 2.03 to make and now no longer works because xyz has changed and it's easier to simply delete everything and start again than make all the changes to everything (plus #7 from previous list of whining)

 

 

Perhaps it's only my opinion, but some of the best missions are those that were made during "low development/update" periods.

The game looks beautiful now. It runs so well and there's only a few glitches that happen. Much better than it was years ago, for sure.
There's a bug tracker that has a few lurkers.
There's half a disjointed wiki with a bunch of updating required.
DR is in a decent state. It's easy to learn and pick up to make another manor mission or rush a tiny mission using prefabs.

But another update on the way - reading this thread - it's made me reconsider bothering to start work on yet another mission that is probably going to have to be scrapped because some update to TDM or DR will mean "fuck it, easier to delete and rebuild".

I'm trying to keep a level head here.
No-one except the French (French...) Foreign Legion and Freyk wished me a happy birthday.
It's Xmas and I have no family - my mates are either dead or had the sense to stay out of the UK when they had the chance.
I love TDM and really want to finish a mission - was planning a new one out and going to start after getting back from some shooting practise and perhaps letting rip with a fully auto or two in Texas and Juarez end of next Jan.
I've played and probably completed every TDM mission at least once. Except the ones that were so irritating and linear that I may as well go do Splinter Cell speed runs instead.
Turns out - half the tricks I've figured out that haven't been in a mission before... They no longer work... Not only that, several hundreds of hours in DR appear "wasted" as the fkn maps are out-dated because they were built for previous versions of TDM in previous versions of DR and - again - it's easier to delete the whole thing and rebuild it all from the ground up than go through its hair with a nit-comb for the bugs.

It's like telling ur kid to go build a lego castle and taking away the blocks as he's going, replacing them with lego technic instead, then deciding that sticklebricks might be better before chucking a whole bunch of Raspberry Pi's at it and telling the kid that he has to programme the machines to build the castle from the missing lego blocks that might be under the couch, duct taped to sticklebricks and jury-rigged with lego technic. Without any decent documentation or manual and you're out at work so no you can't help because go figure it out, I'm busy kid...

All the while, totally ignoring the rollerskate on the steps that's been there for ages and some people keep slipping on.

I want to give the player a good challenge. Searchlights, steam-punk camera systems to evade, motion sensing devices, figure out interesting and fun new things to do other than simply sneak around yet another cube shaped area, konking out guards and stealing something, seeing the same gameplay over and over when TDM is more than capable of some really innovative things!!! (not a cyberpunk reskin mod of a mod - got dx and ss2 and a whole bunch of new games for that)

If there's the time to figure stuff out and implement something beyond a test-map and put that into a mission that can really show what TDM - that you've built already to an exceptional standard - can do... That'd be great.

Has no-one else noticed the corrolation between the speed of the newer updates to the frequency of newer FMs?

At least doing some level design and asset creation in an indiedb unity or cryengine or whatever - you get to speak with people and project manage and know what stage this is at and ok, the codings done, here's what the player can do - thanks i'll go make a prototype and give the modellers and UI guys a hand with the graphics and then build the final level and work back from that so we can think about how the player experience might be before getting in some outsiders to give it a bash, even though it's only a crappy platform stealth in unity3d with nothing particularly special about it other than you guys are 18 and you've never done this before.


When is it going to be take a break time for you guys..?

When is documentation from those who know going to be written up or rechecked to see if its still relevent..?
If I knew - I'd write it... but I don't, so I can't - all I know is what I figure out and what I pick up from the wiki and by dissecting old missions in a non-sterile environment without a nurse or any drugs to dull the pain.

Am I ever going to be around in DR when there isn't an update pending that might or might not screw over something/everything I am trying to do, having just restarted due to the last set of changes..?


And why does the camera system/scrying mirror portal sky thing suddenly not work - I can't figure that one out... the rest is explainable.

Today, on the left - 2.04 on the right.

All the lost potential... gotta refind it or it's gonna end up fallout 2 to 3, dx to hr. Ubisoft to nUbisoft Farcry2 to FC3, Hitman to... that game they call hitman now... Altair to ... egypt...


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#2 lowenz

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 08:21 AM

I know people here don't look upon me particularly well

 

Maybe because you put these "warnings" ahead every time? :D

Really, there's no need to disrupt a non-existing prejudice.


Edited by lowenz, 30 November 2017 - 08:21 AM.

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#3 grayman

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 08:27 AM

I don't get the impression that we're moving at a breakneck pace. There's prolly a year between TDM releases, and retired guru greebo only works on DR when he gets an itch to do so, or the DR bug list has become a set of "interesting problems to look at".

 

As for TDM, we strive to not break existing missions. If we inadvertently break something, either we fix it entirely in TDM, or we work with the mission author to get an update to the mission.

 

We can't be beholding to missions that haven't been released, because our assumption is that those missions will be released on some future TDM version, and the author will "catch up" to the functionality/assets that that future version provides. For every released mission, there are probably dozens of unreleased missions, where the author felt overwhelmed by mapping, or was just experimenting. We have no access to those, so we can't test them.

 

The frequency of new mission releases is more tied to existing work being on HUGE missions (or, in my case, to RL having cut my TDM hours/ week from around 70 to 10). Every once in a while someone releases a smaller mission.

 

As for the camera, I changed it in 2.06 because it was broken (savegames crashed), and I couldn't find missions where it was used as it was. I'm writing a WIKI page on the new version. If it turns out I broke an existing mission, then either that will get fixed while we wrap up 2.06, or it will get fixed in 2.07. There is precedent for an existing mission falling through the cracks and "skipping" a TDM version until we can repair the problem, but that's rare.

 

My only suggestion for you is to pick something you want to release, get it updated to 2.06, then work on getting it released. Sounds like you have more than a few candidates.


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#4 Springheel

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 08:42 AM

3 - a lot of my older maps now have pathing errors for stock models/textures/things/stuff that must've been repathed or depreciated or something...

 

 

We don't move models or textures on purpose.  Perhaps if you provided a list of these errors, they could be addressed.



#5 Abusimplea

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 09:10 AM

Please, please, please stop updating the game and DR so often... it's like every time I get close to figuring something out - something is changed and, after going through a few dozen old maps... testing out and seeing what to do next on them (I paint a few pictures at the same time) things don't work any more. Shaders repathed, textures missing or depreciated or repathed, mechanics changed. I've ALWAYS used stock to avoid having to go through the lengthy process of including a whole bunch of stuff that is not necessary.

Yes, regressions are annoying. But the yearly update brings welcome improvements too.
 
Since 2.04 i am able to take a candle holder from a table without alerting the entire building. I did not manipulate objects often before that update. Now i do it all the time. 2.04 made TDM better.
2.06 brings soft shadows. I got the beta as soon as i heard of it. Will never go back to 2.05. Yes, that is just graphics - but it did already improved my TDM experience a lot.
 
TDM needs that updates. Sure, they add regressions and break some maps. But they also add new possibilities for mappers and they really improved the game for me as a player too. For me, 2.06 already made a lot of old maps new again...
 
Regarding the one night stands: When you find some mechanic you want to use, build a small quick mission that uses it. Betatest it in the betatesting board, publish it in its own thread on the fan missions board. Then there is an official mission that uses the mechanic and devs and testers can test updates against it.

Maybe, publishing a demo map featuring some use cases of the feature on editors guild board and pointing to it on each update is enough too (don't know).

Game engines are complicated stuff and full of undocumented behaviour (and bugs of course). Without regression tests, mechanics will get broken. For TDM it seems, like the missions are the regression tests (and that is okay, as they have to test the missions anyway).


Edited by Abusimplea, 30 November 2017 - 09:11 AM.


#6 Judith

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 09:53 AM

I don't think TDM team should take responsibility for whatever number of great maps that are sitting on people's hard drives but never got released. This way there won't be any updates ever. Focus on one thing and get your stuff released, so your map can be taken into account, if future changes break anything.



#7 HMart

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 01:58 PM

teh_saccade... Look man i comprehend and sorry if a sound arsh, if you think TDM is improving to fast, stick with a version till your mission is made, and if you need to update it later do it, if not release the mission and put a warning saying your mission is for a particular version of TDM, i'm pretty sure some will play it, and if the mission is any good i'm sure some other mission maker will help you update it to a new version of TDM, for example, i still work modo 601 and with DR 2.2.1 for my game, because i don't need to update, you should do the same. Asking the TDM team to stop or slow development is not a good thing, this is not a paid endeavour, people work on the engine and tools when they are motivated to do so, this is not a constant thing, there will be a time where TDM updates will dry (i hope that's a long way away), and then you will ask why they are not updating anymore. 

 

Also very important, The TDM updates are made to your and our benefit, they not only improve the game to gamers like me but also to improve the tool set to mission makers, working on the engine removes from it limitations that prevent mission makers from making better stuff and better looking stuff, why there's no forests areas and complex terrain for example? Those are engine limitations preventing people from making those, i'm not saying 2.06 will bring that, if ever, but big changes like those for 2.06 bring very welcome, IMO updates, that not only improve graphics, improve performance but also the tool that is the engine itself, some breakage of backwards compatibility should not be feared but welcomed, if not stagnation sets in.
 
IMO 2.06 for TDM is a game changer, literally, One, Soft stencil shadows for example, improve shadows visually dramatically, but specially shadow maps, if those were implemented, they not only improve the look of the shadows as well but permit, alpha textures from automatically cast shadows, this would permit new effects for TDM and remove from mission makers some manual work, right now if someone wants to make a texture cast a shadow they need to manually fake it, in a time consuming manner, i know some on the TDM team are against shadow maps, i know, because the existent shadow map implementations on idtech 4 are very hit and miss and not very performant, for example the fhdoom shadow maps are not perfect but imo they are also losing with that, pretty much everyone on the industry gave up on stencil shadows years ago, but i digress.
 
Two, EFX sound, this tech improves the sound for everyone, not only those with old Creative sound cards also gives a incentive to mission makers to improve sound on their missions, on a game like TDM where sound is a important part of the gameplay, EAX/EFX effects are a icing on the cake, you can play without EFX effects but after playing with them you really miss them (when the effects are well done).
 
Three OpenGL 3.2 render, more importantly GLSL shaders, this is the greatest game changer of them all, massively improves the graphical tool set and possibilities for TDM, at the same time, massively diminishes the difficulty to make new post process effects, like god rays for example, the possibilities are endless, working with existent ARB shader language is very hard and is pretty much a dead tech now(only a matter of time until modern GPU's stop supporting them fully), making things even worse there's hardly any online tutorials on ARB shaders but on GLSL there's tons, also GLSL shaders are written in a much human readable, C like language and there's plenty of GLSL and even HLSL shaders (very similar language) online to learn from. 
 
My two cents. 


Edited by HMart, 30 November 2017 - 02:02 PM.

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#8 duzenko

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:25 PM

Briarwood Manor opening scene, approx 32FPS for both.

Don't get me started on that...

 

IMO 2.06 for TDM is a game changer, literally, One, Soft stencil shadows for example, improve shadows visually dramatically, but specially shadow maps, if those were implemented, they not only improve the look of the shadows as well but permit, alpha textures from automatically cast shadows, this would permit new effects for TDM and remove from mission makers some manual work, right now if someone wants to make a texture cast a shadow they need to manually fake it, in a time consuming manner, i know some on the TDM team are against shadow maps, i know, because the existent shadow map implementations on idtech 4 are very hit and miss and not very performant, for example the fhdoom shadow maps are not perfect but imo they are also losing with that, pretty much everyone on the industry gave up on stencil shadows years ago, but i digress.

Shadow maps are in trunk but @grayman does not feel like including it in 2.06. On low-end PC's it's faster than stencil because of less CPU work involved.

 

The entire "too fast" thing is very much off topic here but I just want to comment that someone on the internal forums suggested that the mod is actually dying. So let's just do as much stuff as we can before this site goes down...



#9 grayman

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 03:06 PM

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Shadow maps are in trunk but @grayman does not feel like including it in 2.06. On low-end PC's it's faster than stencil because of less CPU work involved.

 

The entire "too fast" thing is very much off topic here but I just want to comment that someone on the internal forums suggested that the mod is actually dying. So let's just do as much stuff as we can before this site goes down...

 

We have deadlines for several reasons. Don't make it sound like I alone made some decision. The reality is that the train left the station. Anything not on the train at that point has to wait for the next train.

 

And if you feel the site is on its way down, there seems no point in doing anything further--whether it's quickly or not. It will all be in vain when we burn up in the sun.


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#10 HMart

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 04:28 PM

No need to start a fight because of something i said, that was not my intention, grayman you are right and the fact that shadow maps are already working is a fantastic news, i'm in no hurry for them, soft stencil shadows are also nice and a welcome improvement thanks you all for the work.  

 

Btw I hope those bad things you guys are saying is just frustration talking not something real.  


Edited by HMart, 30 November 2017 - 04:29 PM.


#11 teh_saccade

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 07:55 PM

Guess I'm just a little more used to working in a different way...

Scrum n sprint and working with a team is very different to how TDM seems to operate, which appears mostly solo ad hoc.

Have some replies I'd like to put in-line, but first need to digest.

Please understand - I'm not trying to be a dick - It's not about me or my maps (I'm happy playing them myself - authorname I put as TDM)... it's the same kinda thing as when I was trying to help with the greenlight issue and thinking up ways to get around steamworks caveats and speak with journalists and stuff about the rather unique situation in which the game found itself.



#12 Abusimplea

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

Guess I'm just a little more used to working in a different way...
Scrum n sprint and working with a team is very different to how TDM seems to operate, which appears mostly solo ad hoc.

I experienced scrum as the new agile philosophy-of-the-week that is used as an excuse to force coders to do tri- to bi-weekly feature updates in ever-repeating crunchtime segements that are called sprints. Are you really sure, that yearly updates are too much for something as big as TDM?

#13 teh_saccade

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:03 AM

Got sidetracked by quick AE job.
OK:

 

 

Maybe because you put these "warnings" ahead every time? :D

Really, there's no need to disrupt a non-existing prejudice.

 

 

History now, I guess - things get deleted. or moved - based upon previous interactions.
De nada. Computer goes off and it's gone. Only matters here...

 


We can't be beholding to missions that haven't been released, because our assumption is that those missions will be released on some future TDM version, and the author will "catch up" to the functionality/assets that that future version provides. For every released mission, there are probably dozens of unreleased missions, where the author felt overwhelmed by mapping, or was just experimenting. We have no access to those, so we can't test them.

 

The frequency of new mission releases is more tied to existing work being on HUGE missions (or, in my case, to RL having cut my TDM hours/ week from around 70 to 10). Every once in a while someone releases a smaller mission.

 

As for the camera, I changed it in 2.06 because it was broken (savegames crashed), and I couldn't find missions where it was used as it was. I'm writing a WIKI page on the new version. If it turns out I broke an existing mission, then either that will get fixed while we wrap up 2.06, or it will get fixed in 2.07. There is precedent for an existing mission falling through the cracks and "skipping" a TDM version until we can repair the problem, but that's rare.

 

My only suggestion for you is to pick something you want to release, get it updated to 2.06, then work on getting it released. Sounds like you have more than a few candidates.

 

Ok - thanks for the explanation wrt to camera. Big missions is the problem. I can't keep up with things. Understand your reasons behind cutting hours. May not be the same, but still there are limits on time that can be allocated...
Just... don't want to add to the pile of things that are already the same but slightly different. I feel that many missions are becoming repetitive and stale in that they kind of preclude replayablity, but the game certainly looks and runs a lot better.

Again, my problem. Do not mean to cause offence or diminish anyone's work, as I know how much time and effort it takes to make any assets or an FM for TDM (or anything that's not a bunch of people sitting next to each other in the same building that have to deal with each other face-to-face and meet deadlines and get paid).

TDM is capable of performing some very interesting things that have not been implemented in any mission I've yet seen.
It would be a massive shame if the principle of "anyone can make a mission" ends up being "anyone can make a variation of this one particular mission that we've all played 100x".
Maybe that's because I've played many of the missions so much that I would say this, though...

Perhaps a solution is to release individual missions and then collect as larger missions update, aiming for update to campaign on completion of first / final mission. But that'd mean doing them all in order... OK np.

 

 

 

We don't move models or textures on purpose.  Perhaps if you provided a list of these errors, they could be addressed.

I don't think it's worth the hassle, Springheel.
I'll do a reformat of Darkmod drive and reinstall everything instead. Clean slate when you have finalised 2.06 after getting back from the augmented reality rules / VR sucks and shooting automatic rifles thing end of next Jan.
Just backup a few maps and scripts for reference, or copy the text from map file and script to notes if not done already.
 

 

Yes, regressions are annoying. But the yearly update brings welcome improvements too.
 
TDM needs that updates. Sure, they add regressions and break some maps. But they also add new possibilities for mappers and they really improved the game for me as a player too. For me, 2.06 already made a lot of old maps new again...
 
Regarding the one night stands: When you find some mechanic you want to use, build a small quick mission that uses it. Betatest it in the betatesting board, publish it in its own thread on the fan missions board. Then there is an official mission that uses the mechanic and devs and testers can test updates against it.

Maybe, publishing a demo map featuring some use cases of the feature on editors guild board and pointing to it on each update is enough too (don't know).

Game engines are complicated stuff and full of undocumented behaviour (and bugs of course). Without regression tests, mechanics will get broken. For TDM it seems, like the missions are the regression tests (and that is okay, as they have to test the missions anyway).

 

The improvements to certain things, sure.
I do not want to publish test maps - that is a big spoiler. I don't mind concept demos through video, but the mechanics behind it remain obfuscated until it's complete - then anyone can use it because I know wtf I'm talking about with some authority and working knowledge.
Thanks for teaching me how to suck eggs. I have no idea about software development cycles or game engines.

 

 

I don't think TDM team should take responsibility for whatever number of great maps that are sitting on people's hard drives but never got released. This way there won't be any updates ever. Focus on one thing and get your stuff released, so your map can be taken into account, if future changes break anything.

 

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. That statement is completely misconstrued. No-one has said anyone "should" take responsibility for anything, except you.
I don't think people should use the words "should" or "shouldn't" because they are absolute and inflexible. "might be better because" or "it could be a good idea to not" are more flexible alternatives.
It's called NLP. Used to date a negotiator for the UN. Doesn't provoke hostile reaction / attempt to pull off high horse.

Do I dictate how you work..? Not all of us have OCD.

 

IMO 2.06 for TDM is a game changer
 
My two cents. 

 

How exactly are graphic and sound updates "game changers"? Will it affect any of the core game mechanics or playstyles available to anyone..?
I left a note in the other thread about why idtech and some other engines are capped for physics - you can put a dress and lipstick on a pig, but it's still not going to improve its chances of getting a date.

 

 

We have deadlines for several reasons. Don't make it sound like I alone made some decision. The reality is that the train left the station. Anything not on the train at that point has to wait for the next train.

 

And if you feel the site is on its way down, there seems no point in doing anything further--whether it's quickly or not. It will all be in vain when we burn up in the sun.

This is probably the most sensible statement in the whole thread.

OK - I missed the boat.

On several occasions.

I've only taken thedarkmod.com down once with a basic synflood[!!!] (and that was a simple fix by a restart - could've done some serious damage...), because the previous host had such terrible security and to demonstrate how knocking out that one server showed centralisation is a weakness - and I admitted to that (several months later...).
If you remember, I offered to pay for new hosting and suggested a few options on how the site could pay for its own hosting, similar to how [another games site] evolved before it was sold out by the individual to a corporation, because it was turning a profit and became a commodity of value - yet still offered all the games for free - but it had already been transferred by Greebo or someone.



Ultimately - what would be nice is if development deadlines were more transparent for anyone who wishes to contribute to TDM so there's the ability to plan ahead with anything that might take a very long time...
This way, it would be easier to plan and manage for us peons left in the dark, with an out-dated wiki (that I really wish I could do more to help with, but I can't), who would like to help by providing content for the game for players to play the game.

As a quick example - if I had known that there was need for a sprint to finish off a particular mechanic to put into a mission for a version and I was unable to meet it... It would have been possible to shift focus onto something achievable, before returning to, eg, the camera system, if/when it was fixed. If I had known a while in advance that it was planed that movers would not cause damage - I'd've made sure to have added some damage at the time, rather than face the prospect of either rebuilding an entire FM or going back through every single entity to check it all.


But - the words "train left the station, anything not on it - wait for the next one" are the only ones that matter here.

That's what it comes down to.

I just need to devote more time, work faster, "should" work in a certain manner, go back in time to catch up or smash my head into the wall repeatedly in the hopes that I cause enough brain damage to become an idiot savant, specialising in TDM mapping.

Got it.

I think the "more time, time builds between updates (and actually submit them rather than work to improve them further) and work faster" sounds more appealing than the other solutions, huh?


Thanks all for the response - clarified a lot.
 



#14 Judith

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:24 AM

 

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. That statement is completely misconstrued. No-one has said anyone "should" take responsibility for anything, except you.
I don't think people should use the words "should" or "shouldn't" because they are absolute and inflexible. "might be better because" or "it could be a good idea to not" are more flexible alternatives.
It's called NLP. Used to date a negotiator for the UN. Doesn't provoke hostile reaction / attempt to pull off high horse.

Do I dictate how you work..? Not all of us have OCD.

 

I was trying to keep things too simple, my mistake. Although it's funny how you can focus on subtle differences in meaning or phrasing, while more often than not, every time you post, you sound like a passive-aggressive ass. You just can't help yourself, even when giving advice to others. You keep saying that people here ignore you or don't like you, and most people are too polite to say why. So, here you have it, your self-fullfilling prophecy.

 

With that out of the way, I think the most viable workflow would be to stick to one version, and then try to release a mission as a standalone package, with .exe and the root files. (Does CC license allow this?) To keep the size low, you'd probably need to keep track of assets you use, and then delete all the unused packages. I've never tried it, but if it's possible to unzip all the core .pk4 packages and just delete assets you don't use, that would be great.



#15 Springheel

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:08 AM

 

Springheel, on 30 Nov 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:
We don't move models or textures on purpose.  Perhaps if you provided a list of these errors, they could be addressed.

I don't think it's worth the hassle, Springheel.

 

 

You've accused us of "discouraging" and "demoralizing" mappers, which I take rather seriously, and one of the pieces of evidence you put forward in support of that accusation was:

 

3 - a lot of my older maps now have pathing errors for stock models/textures/things/stuff that must've been repathed or depreciated or something...

 

 

We don't, as a rule, move stock models or textures, precisely because it does break things for mappers. We spend a great deal of time beta-testing each release to make sure things have not been inadvertently broken. I try, in particular, to catch any broken artistic assets.

 

So your evidence means one of three things:

 

1.  We did break some stock assets and missed correcting them.  If this is the case, I need to know about it so they can be fixed.

2.  Something is wrong on your end that is causing errors.  If this is the case, you probably want to know about it so it can be fixed.

3.  Your statement is inaccurate.  Perhaps models you thought were stock assets actually weren't.  If true, this would be useful information to know.

 

To say that it's "not worth the hassle" to provide some of the broken paths hardly seems fair.  It results in the accusation remaining in play without you having to confirm whether those errors are actually our fault.


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#16 Abusimplea

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:16 AM

Please understand - I'm not trying to be a dick[...]

It obviously did not work that well, but thanks for trying.

#17 brethren

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 12:55 PM

This is why people don't think of you particularly well and that you're difficult (one example of many many):

 

tbh - considering what i've been hearing this past week from different people, i'm considering TDM abandonware that spreads its butter too thin on stale bread.

 

glhf.

 

out.

 

So, in one breath you consider the mod abandoned (as in no updates, this was back in July), and now you're accusing it of doing the complete opposite.  Make up your mind.


Edited by brethren, 01 December 2017 - 01:02 PM.

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#18 lowenz

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 01:57 PM

Good catch  :ph34r:  :P


Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#19 wesp5

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:22 PM

There is another problem here. On one side he claims that all the missions play too similar and on the other hand the mod updates are too often. In my opinion even when the mod is updated, it's updated very conservatively. Everything really changing gameplay (exstinguishing oil lamps, throwing holy water, pushing enemies, caltrops and more that I can't remember) is mostly disregarded...


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#20 HMart

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 09:27 AM

 

 

How exactly are graphic and sound updates "game changers"? Will it affect any of the core game mechanics or playstyles available to anyone..?
I left a note in the other thread about why idtech and some other engines are capped for physics - you can put a dress and lipstick on a pig, but it's still not going to improve its chances of getting a date.

 

 

"game changer" was a figure of expression, it was like saying, even tho it doesn't change the core gameplay of the game (and never did i said such thing) it does change the feeling of the game and specially the future way in how you work on TDM missions, that what i'm referring to.

 

How graphics and sound updates change game play? Graphics can indeed change gameplay, imagine that you have no shadows in a game, i know is not the case in TDM but just imagine if it was, with no shadows, obviously you couldn't hide in those and you only have the direct line of sight or sound cues to detect threats, but with the existence of shadows you can see some threat coming just by the shadow it casts, this imo is a gameplay changing act, a shadow can also be used to cause fear to a player by making it larger and menacing than the object casting it, etc. In the case of TDM, when shadow maps get enabled for all, you will be able to hide in shadows that didn't existed before, because they are being casted by alpha transparent surfaces, for example hiding in the shadow casted by a tree canopy, etc.

With EFX sound is not really gameplay changing, but is really immersion changing, but i can't really tell you, you need to hear it, wait for them to solve the problems and learn how to implement EFX well and you will see what i'm talking about, in the mean time see this video bellow. 

 

Is not really the full power of EFX effects but shows how nice even a small amount of it makes the sound, well sound better.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM5S7uRZ_5w&t=140s 


Edited by HMart, 02 December 2017 - 09:29 AM.


#21 Kurshok

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 10:42 PM

Well, I can slightly agree that having to manually reinstall for every major update and enemy is a pain in the shitter. That's why I'm waiting for the Steam Release, so it will automatically update.

#22 wesp5

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:41 AM

Well, I can slightly agree that having to manually reinstall for every major update and enemy is a pain in the shitter. That's why I'm waiting for the Steam Release, so it will automatically update.

In context with this topic a Steam release would be even more problematic as you wouldn't be able to choose which version to continue to map for...



#23 Springheel

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:40 AM

Well, I can slightly agree that having to manually reinstall for every major update and enemy is a pain in the shitter. That's why I'm waiting for the Steam Release, so it will automatically update.

 

You don't have to manually reinstall.  You just use the updater.



#24 Bikerdude

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:25 AM

*
POPULAR

Well, I can slightly agree that having to manually reinstall for every major update and enemy is a pain in the shitter. That's why I'm waiting for the Steam Release, so it will automatically update.

You don't have to manually reinstall.  You just use the updater.

The primary reason the updater fails is because you have the read-only perms set on TheDarkmod folder and it contents. This is a known windows idosyncrasy/issue that users should be aware off, and not a problem with the mod or the updater.

 

This is one of those thread that surves no purpose imho, @the OP, dude you know that if you have technical or other issue with the mod there are more than enough people mtself included that can help.


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#25 freyk

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 01:14 PM

This is a known windows idosyncrasy/issue that users should be aware off, and not a problem with the mod or the updater.

...And solved by using the installer.




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