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Please stop updating the game


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#26 teh_saccade

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:19 PM

Accusation is incorrect word to use - what was presented was an opinion. That is not an insinuation nor accusation.

 

 

You've accused us of "discouraging" and "demoralizing" mappers, which I take rather seriously, and one of the pieces of evidence you put forward in support of that accusation was:

 

 

We don't, as a rule, move stock models or textures, precisely because it does break things for mappers. We spend a great deal of time beta-testing each release to make sure things have not been inadvertently broken. I try, in particular, to catch any broken artistic assets.

 

So your evidence means one of three things:

 

1.  We did break some stock assets and missed correcting them.  If this is the case, I need to know about it so they can be fixed.

2.  Something is wrong on your end that is causing errors.  If this is the case, you probably want to know about it so it can be fixed.

3.  Your statement is inaccurate.  Perhaps models you thought were stock assets actually weren't.  If true, this would be useful information to know.

 

To say that it's "not worth the hassle" to provide some of the broken paths hardly seems fair.  It results in the accusation remaining in play without you having to confirm whether those errors are actually our fault.


Spoiler


 

#27 Springheel

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:29 PM

Accusation is incorrect word to use - what was presented was an opinion. That is not an insinuation nor accusation.

 

 

The fact that something is an opinion does not disqualify it from being an accusation. 

 

Looking over your condump, I see 4 missing textures.  One is an editor file that would have no impact on your map.  I will look into the other 3, but they do not look like stock assets to me.

 

I see no missing models.



#28 teh_saccade

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:41 PM

I simply loaded the startmap, downloaded from the wiki.
I've never used anything but stock assets in builds.

Any textures and materials I do have were to be added as replacement after blackbox test for FM.

Sorry you read it as an accusation.
I'm too tired to contine argument for semantics, today.

Will try to find a map with missing models and IWO errors next time.


Edited by teh_saccade, 04 December 2017 - 04:05 PM.


#29 Kurshok

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:49 PM

If it's not coming out on Steam, I guess I'll ask my uncle to help me install everything. He's a computer whiz.

#30 Obsttorte

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 03:32 AM

I simply loaded the startmap, downloaded from the wiki.

The startmap is shipped with the mod. If you use the version from the wiki, you most likely have an outdated version.


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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
Let's Map TDM YouTube playlist: ObstlerTube
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#31 Abusimplea

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:21 AM

If it's not coming out on Steam, I guess I'll ask my uncle to help me install everything. He's a computer whiz.

Just download the updater, throw it into a fresh folder where it may write and run it. Then run the game and load additional missions using the ingame mission downloader. Generally you only need to download missions manually if you want to betatest stuff.

 

 

TDM might indeed profit from a proper installer on Windows though. It would need to acquire the needed rights (windows UAC prompt), create the game folder, make it writable for the user, drop the updater, run it to actually install the game, and then optionally create icons to the updater and game in start menu and on the desktop - and add an uninstall entry to the registry.

Maybe the updater itself could be extended to do that on first use (uninstall entry, folder structure, pk4s, and exes missing).


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#32 CarltonTroisi

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:24 PM

If it's not coming out on Steam, I guess I'll ask my uncle to help me install everything. He's a computer whiz.

Good idea.  Please do install The Dark Mod, you have no idea what you've been missing.

 

Don't worry about any updates or things like that, for now.



#33 Obsttorte

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:36 PM

TDM might indeed profit from a proper installer on Windows though. It would need to acquire the needed rights (windows UAC prompt), create the game folder, make it writable for the user, drop the updater, run it to actually install the game, and then optionally create icons to the updater and game in start menu and on the desktop - and add an uninstall entry to the registry.
Maybe the updater itself could be extended to do that on first use (uninstall entry, folder structure, pk4s, and exes missing).

Hasn't freyk been working on such an installer?

However, I am not sure how beneficial it really is. Sure, using the downloader is different from the typical way of installing applications, but it isn't more difficult or such.
FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild
WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.
Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches
Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models
My wiki articles: Obstipedia
Let's Map TDM YouTube playlist: ObstlerTube
Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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#34 Bikerdude

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:40 PM

However, I am not sure how beneficial it really is.

As I understand, it provides an automated way to get the mod installed while fixing folder persm at the same time - which is usefull for non-technical players.



#35 Abusimplea

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 02:53 PM

Hasn't freyk been working on such an installer?

However, I am not sure how beneficial it really is. Sure, using the downloader is different from the typical way of installing applications, but it isn't more difficult or such.

Don't know, whether anyone is working on such a beast or not.

 

But having a fully dialog-driven install process, would make the game playable by the growing population of casual users - people who only know how to turn the PC on and start properly installed programms or use a web browser.

A regular TDM installation as it is now, requires knowledge of the file system and permissions. That knowledge is techtree-locked behind the power-user perk. There are a lot of users who never consciously use a file system browser. But they can click through an installer accepting all defaults on the way. They also tend to never change any ingame settings - so better to review them before the installer goes live...



#36 chakkman

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:39 PM

Hasn't freyk been working on such an installer?

However, I am not sure how beneficial it really is. Sure, using the downloader is different from the typical way of installing applications, but it isn't more difficult or such.

 

I actually find it much easier. And, as far as i understood it, it doesn't cluster stuff onto user folders, and other places too. Think i prefer it to a "normal" installer. And if TDM lands on Steam one day, it gets even easier, IMO.



#37 freyk

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:06 AM

Yes, but TDM is not on Steam, yet.

For the advanced users is the updater is sufficient,
but not for the average user.
(like Kurshok in this topic, who i advised to use the installer earlier)

The installer prevents several beginners problems, on several os-platforms.
Problems like described above and you can find several examples on this forum yourself.
And it has the features that users need to start.
(as i said many times before, on this forum)

I hope that the installer will be more advertised to them,
on the main downloadpage: http://www.thedarkmo...wnload-the-mod/
(the installer can be found on Moddb TDM and my portfolio and his source on github)
And start topic.

Edited by freyk, 09 December 2017 - 07:24 AM.


#38 teh_saccade

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:14 AM

Springheel, the IWO errors were mostly caused by new LOD system and some AI.

Removing models in DR, reload and replace has fixed.

Thanks.



#39 wesp5

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 06:45 AM

The installer prevents several beginners problems, on several os-platforms.

So why is this not included with the mod itself?



#40 freyk

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:00 AM

I don't know.
Maybe because they think the updater is easier to "install" TDM, for advanced users.
(and forget to do the things in Abusimplea list, for windows. and other standard steps in other os'ses)

Edited by freyk, 08 December 2017 - 08:08 AM.

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#41 Judith

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:12 AM

What's so advanced in creating a folder, downloading a launcher and running it there? The same goes for updates. All you need to do, is to go to the forums once-twice a year, and see if there's a new wersion, and launch the updater again.


Edited by Judith, 08 December 2017 - 08:12 AM.

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#42 Springheel

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:31 AM

Springheel, the IWO errors were mostly caused by new LOD system and some AI.

 

 

The "new LOD system" was added in 2010.  If you haven't updated since then, it's not surprising you're noticing changes.


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#43 freyk

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 08:41 AM

What's so advanced in creating a folder, downloading a launcher and running it there? The same goes for updates.

Ask that question again at Kurshok and several other users.
(and all the problems that comes with it)

Edited by freyk, 08 December 2017 - 09:09 AM.

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#44 Abusimplea

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 02:20 PM

What's so advanced in creating a folder, downloading a launcher and running it there? The same goes for updates. All you need to do, is to go to the forums once-twice a year, and see if there's a new wersion, and launch the updater again.

Nothing. The user will do exactly that. He downloads the updater, moves it to the new folder and runs it.

Then the updater may or may not work depending on whether the new folder is located inside a folder, where the user's account normally has write access (the user did not click away some warning while creating/moving the folder/updater) or not. If not (commonly "C:\Program Files" or "C:\games"), the updater just fails.

Non-advanced users are not able to detect the cause of the problem. They could just move the TDM folder into their downloads folder and everything would work fine. But we tell them to make the new folder somewhere, where they would have to set permissions for it to actually work ("C:\games"). We do not tell them, that they have to set that permissions. We also do not tell them how to do that in the currently most common Windows versuions (7 and 10).

Note, that the installation instructions where valid for Windows XP as back then any place the user could create or move something to would also permit later modification by everything the user runs.

They are just a tiny bit outdated (iirc since ten years).

 

A quick fix would be to recommend installing in a subfolder of the downloads folder. It would certainly be bad practice (as is not using user-specific folders for missions, configs and saves on Windows anyway), but the user has reliable write permissions there...


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#45 teh_saccade

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:36 PM

Of course I've updated since 2010...

Wait, you know what:

Forget I said a thing.

Just forget I exist.


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