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Multiple render worlds?


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#1 duzenko

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 06:33 AM

Does anyone use the integrated idRenderWindow editor tool? This is the only place that seems to use additional renderwordls in TDM.

If unused I would like to remove it which will allow to remove quite a number of linked pointer operations in front renderer.



#2 stgatilov

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 07:21 AM

I think it is only used by in-game GUI editor.

You can type "editGUIs" in console to launch it.

It does not seem to work though.



#3 grayman

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 09:31 AM

Is it a single block of code, or is it intermingled with a bunch of other useful stuff?

 

If the former, I'd say to comment it out, in case someone not paying attention today wonders why he can't use it (or fix it) a month from now.



#4 duzenko

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 11:15 AM

Yes, it's only the GUI editor, but I want to know if it is used by anyone? I know a number of tools is used, but that particular thing?

 

Basically it's one editor control only, called idRenderWindow, but is it in use at all?



#5 Springheel

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 11:16 AM

You're getting a small sample of people in the team forums.



#6 duzenko

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 11:21 AM

You're getting a small sample of people in the team forums.

Could you move this thread to a more appropriate forum?



#7 freyk

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:05 PM

I would like to use it, but the gui editor crashes from start.
So, i create guis using other the gui editor from other idtech guis.

Or do you point at renderDef?

Edited by freyk, 03 December 2017 - 12:11 PM.


#8 stumpy

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 06:53 PM

"idRenderWindow" its used by the gui system to render 3d animations "renderDef A window that displays a rendered 3d scene"

 

the built in gui editor is in the tools directory sub directory guied,  if that isn't added to the game compile then editGUI wont work in the games command window.

 

looking around the internet and one site says that idRenderWindow was used to show the 3D planet in the main menu of doom 3

 

or the gui editor never made it into the source as it was owned by raven software.


Edited by stumpy, 03 December 2017 - 06:58 PM.


#9 nbohr1more

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 07:02 PM

"idRenderWindow" its used by the gui system to render 3d animations "renderDef A window that displays a rendered 3d scene"
 
the built in gui editor is in the tools directory sub directory guied,  if that isn't added to the game compile then editGUI wont work in the games command window.
 
looking around the internet and one site says that idRenderWindow was used to show the 3D planet in the main menu of doom 3


http://bugs.thedarkm...iew.php?id=4569

In v1.08 we removed "GUI renderDef lights" which were designed for this 3D menu behavior so this additional change would probably completely
kill the option to have 3D GUI's. Since the Compass was affected by this change, we would probably need to redesign the compass if we removed
idRenderWindow?
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#10 freyk

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:09 AM

Please dont remove this function, because others (like me) need this for design.
For example the compass (as posted earlier), showing other 3d loot in the hud (like thief 1), putting a moving person in the mainmenu, etc.

 

-

I dont understand why people delete code of existing/working objects from the codebase.
Please stop! (And repair/improve the object.)

For example, i don't understand why the d3 PDA-system is removed.
This could also been (optional) disabled/reskinned/re-imagned.
(like it could be named garrets notebook)

 


Edited by freyk, 04 December 2017 - 05:00 AM.

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#11 Obsttorte

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 04:03 AM

I dont understand why people delete code of existing/working objects from the codebase.
Please stop! (And repair/improve the object.)

 

+1


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#12 Destined

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 08:26 AM

Well, I imagine that the code gets confusing after a while, if you just add stuff and comment out all the stuff you don't need anymore. Not sure how/if this affects speed, but I can imagine that working through more lines of code will slow down a program (from a laymans point of view this would make sense). And if I remember correctly someone here (most likely grayman) wrote some time back, that unnecessary code is usually commented out for some time and if it is not missed for a couple of years or so, it gets deleted.



#13 Judith

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 09:02 AM

It makes sense, as you can't forsee every use and evey fork mod that might or might not be in the works. Noone used 3d menu gui or PDA system in TDM missions for so many years, so it got deleted. You can always refer to original Doom 3 code to reimplement this.



#14 nbohr1more

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 09:16 AM

There's at least a few rationales for code removal, off the top o' my head:

1) Less features to test\fix when changing code infrastructure
2) Less dependencies to keep track of
3) More legible code, less code to review
4) Less resources to load
5) Shorter compile times

That said, if this breaks 3D GUI's then I'd say it's probably unwise. We now have a GUI resizing option
in 2.06 and I think many would like to see that extended to have a 3D scene where both GUI and Graphic options
can be previewed. A 3D GUI would be perfect for that.

Of course, I'm basing all this concern over 3D GUI on Stumpy's post. I haven't really validated whether 3D GUI
really requires multiple render worlds (etc).
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#15 freyk

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 01:05 PM

To me and newcomers, its is all about functionality on the frontend.
We cannot read code.
So understanable code at the backend is not importent to us. (but maybe performance)

How about bringing back the pda menu, keep the 3d gui elements. And keep them as a feature.

Edited by freyk, 04 December 2017 - 01:06 PM.


#16 Judith

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 01:26 PM

You want to make a total conversion for TDM without coding? Good luck with that...



#17 HMart

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 02:33 PM

There's at least a few rationales for code removal, off the top o' my head:

1) Less features to test\fix when changing code infrastructure
2) Less dependencies to keep track of
3) More legible code, less code to review
4) Less resources to load
5) Shorter compile times

That said, if this breaks 3D GUI's then I'd say it's probably unwise. We now have a GUI resizing option
in 2.06 and I think many would like to see that extended to have a 3D scene where both GUI and Graphic options
can be previewed. A 3D GUI would be perfect for that.

Of course, I'm basing all this concern over 3D GUI on Stumpy's post. I haven't really validated whether 3D GUI
really requires multiple render worlds (etc).

 

Even tho i totally agree with that, for example i'm slowly removing the multiplayer code from my version of fhDoom, i personally don't like multiplayer games and i'm working on a single player game so no need to maintain that part of the code. But on 3D GUI's, IMO you guys didn't weighted well the benefits or not on maintaining or removing the functionality, IMO the problem with no one using it for TDM missions was, thief add no such thing so people looking for the thief look, don't turn to 3D GUI's, lack of a example and specially good tutorials, almost all GUI tutorials for idtech 4 are 2D based, what is unfortunate.  IMO that ability is fantastic to have, with it you can do some really cool stuff, like being able to interact with 3D objects in the GUI's, rotating them or zooming in to see hidden messages on them or something like that, etc.


Edited by HMart, 04 December 2017 - 02:35 PM.

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#18 Abusimplea

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 05:53 PM

You want to make a total conversion for TDM without coding? Good luck with that...

I would expect it to be possible to do a total conversion to another setting without touching the C code. It certainly would need its amount of scripting though. And, of course, the target game would be single player and feature mostly the same mechanics as TDM.



#19 stumpy

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 06:07 PM

idRenderWindow is used by the gui editor, and by the game interface eg menu, players hud, gui readables, so the best method would be to remove the include idRenderWindow path from the gui editor then it would save loads of calls, as the gui editor doesn't work anyway and is called via some code in radiant.  unless you were thinking about idRenderWorld, and not window, but I think that renders the game world and if you remove that then the game wouldn't work.



#20 freyk

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:59 AM

Just dont do it.
Improve the code to make it more functional.
And make the gui editor work again.
 
And for the future,
please give the community the choice, when removing important code from the base. (which you did in this topic)

 

(putting back the "mail" system and changing multiplayer to co-op, would be nice features of TDM)
 

You want to make a total conversion for TDM without coding? Good luck with that...

No, its just a wrong choice of set of words,
to give coders a example that average TDM designer/player dont have the knowledge/time/permissions to put removed code back.
(I have put down code for several TDM applications, like the tdm-launcher, thief 2 hash checker, app for android and scripted some installers.)


Edited by freyk, 09 December 2017 - 06:21 AM.

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#21 stgatilov

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 06:52 AM

I agree with freyk.

Removing features and proper architecture for the sake of some tiny optimizations (well, do they give +20% FPS?) is a simply the wrong way to go.

If you do microoptimizations, please be sure that they don't break anything.



#22 duzenko

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 12:52 PM

I agree with freyk.

Removing features and proper architecture for the sake of some tiny optimizations (well, do they give +20% FPS?) is a simply the wrong way to go.

If you do microoptimizations, please be sure that they don't break anything.

On that subject

Does anyone here even know how to make use of multiple render worlds in TDM?

It's one thing when it is unused, but another when nobody even knows how to use it.



#23 freyk

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 01:13 AM

sure, put some "renderdef" in your gui code.
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#24 stumpy

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 05:10 AM

its used by the players in game compass

 

//
//     Compass HUD, original version code by Drumple, modifications by greebo
//

windowDef Desktop {
    rect 500, 290, 140, 180
    backcolor 0 ,0 ,0 ,0
    visible    "gui::CompassVisible"
    nocursor 1

    renderDef compassModel
    {
        rect           0, 0, 140, 180
        visible        1
        backcolor      0, 0, 0, 0
        model          "models/darkmod/player_equipment/compass.ase"
        needsRender    1
        modelRotate    ("gui::modelPitch"), ("gui::modelYaw"), ("gui::modelRoll"), 1
        modelOrigin    0, 0, 0, 1
        viewOffset     -10, 0, 6, 1
        lightOrigin    -50, 0, 50, 0
        lightColor     1, 1, 1, 1
    }
} // Desktop
 


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#25 duzenko

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 05:31 AM

its used by the players in game compass
 

Lesson learned





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