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Star Wars, The Last Jedi (spoilers)


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#1 Springheel

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:31 PM

So, any thoughts?

 

I had a very mixed reaction while watching the movie, enjoying some scenes, and cringing at others.  But the more I've thought about the movie after seeing it, the more annoying I find the decisions that were made.  For me it's by far the worst of the 3 Disney SWs.



#2 jaxa

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 10:02 PM

(I have not read any full reviews for the movie.)

 

It was a movie that really did try to "kill the past". But it also seemed to toss in some wild ideas fans might think of when watching the previous movies:

 

Why can't we use hyperspeed as a weapon? (Plenty valid for me, like riding an asteroid straight through Earth using hyperspace.)

 

Why do we have to grab the light saber to kill an opponent? Why not just use the force to manipulate the light saber and eviscerate them from the side? (This is the smart alternative to the Luke/Vader/Palpatine scene in Return of the Jedi.)

 

People in the movie theater seemed afraid to laugh at all of the humor that was stuffed into the movie. Even though it was pretty funny.

 

On the other hand, I had to stifle my laughter for the entire minute when Luke was dying. The entire sequence of events was weird. He is basically tricking someone from light years away. He gives some fuzzy dice from the Millennium Falcon to Leia (which disappeared, right?). He fights as a distraction, and then when he's finished he dies of severe force constipation. And the sun was setting and all I could think of was: "Metamucil: A New Dawn". I was laughing about that for about 5 complete minutes in and out of the theater.

 

Leia using the force to get back onto the ship. Was it cringey? It was laughable but ultimately I was OK with it. It was established in Return of the Jedi that she could probably use the force with some training, because Darth Vader told Luke that he knew about her and would recruit her if he wouldn't join him. The actual mechanics of it? Well, the first Guardians of the Galaxy had a similar scene. You can definitely survive for a little while exposed to the vacuum of space. You don't actually freeze instantly because vacuum is not a conductor of heat, so you are just radiating heat out (spacecraft such as the James Webb Space Telescope have to have sophisticated cooling/shading systems to manage the difficulties of the vacuum).

 

About the hacker they recruited on Planet Casino. What happened to the first guy they saw with the rose symbol? That was a different guy, right? Were they just setting him up for a role in a different Star Wars movie?

 

Yoda burning the tree was a good scene. Yoda being able to do that is pretty much squared away with an explanation given in Revenge of the Sith. Qui-Gon Jinn, Yoda, and Obi-Wan basically became "force spirits" at one with the Force. So I was definitely OK with Yoda manipulating already present natural forces to burn a tree down.

 

If anyone is complaining about the cute island bird things, it's not that different than what has been seen in other films of the series.

 

The kid grabbing the broom with the force at the end was clever. Almost too clever. That's probably been done before in some context (like Magneto at the end of X-Men: The Last Stand).

 

I came in with low expectations, was not sober, and was OK with how the film went. In fact I'd say it was better than the first one of the trilogy, which tried too hard to be A New Hope 2.


Edited by jaxa, 04 January 2018 - 10:11 PM.


#3 jaxa

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 10:23 PM

Snoke was pretty underwhelming. I forgot his role in the first movie, and he didn't do much but die here. I'm excited to see Andy Serkis in Black Panther though.

 

Also, here's a fun article I stumbled on: Why Kylo Ren Is the Perfect Villain for the Age of the Alt-Right



#4 Goldwell

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 11:02 PM

I felt that the movie was good as it had fantastic cinematography and an excellent soundtrack too. Where I felt the film was a let down was how they handled Luke's character and how they threw out the window pretty much every plot point that was setup in the force awakens. 

 

However as it's the middle in the trilogy I'm going to reserve final thoughts on the story until we see the next film and it all slots together. But as a film stand-alone the story was it's weakest point due to the plotholes and very out of character scenes. 

 

I didn't mind the Marvel style jokes in the film, I felt they weren't too pushy and genuinely made me laugh a couple of times but I hope in the next film that sort of stuff is kept to a minimum. 


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#5 stumpy

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:00 AM

they cut an hour from the film, some details have been released as to what they were, it sounds like some were related to more story background, probably filling those area's where it seems something is missing, There a 10 minute sequence cut from the island where Luke convinces Rey that the caretakers are being attacked by raiders and she rushes to help and finds out the caretakers are having a feast instead. Lot of elevator scenes were cut. They were cut due to time restrictions. Probably the film was not to go over the 2 1/2 hour length. Equates to bums on seats and how many shows per day.

 

I saw it in 3D IMAX, looked ok to me, basically out with the dead rot, in with the new. There will probably be a few years gap in star wars universe between this film and the next, or maybe not, as the next parts script has all been rewritten with Carrie Fishers' part removed. Guess they will start filming soon.


Edited by stumpy, 05 January 2018 - 12:05 AM.


#6 Diego

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 05:20 AM

I enjoyed it.

 

But my main problem with the previous movie is that it is a ripoff of a new hope. Like, scene by scene, shameless carbon copy! So when going in to see this movie I made a promise to my friends; if there's a scene in this movie when an important villainous character talks to Rey "No, I am your [family connection]" and Rey responds with "nooooo", I will watch the next star wars movie straight from pirate bay.

 

So that's a big part of my enjoyment of this movie. It is an original story, flawed as it may be. Considering the prequels are also original stories I appreciate good original stories even if they are not amazing.

 

I remember that after seeing the first movie, Snoke didn't leave any impression on me and I was surprised by all the theories and expectations that fans made around it. So I'm fine with that end as the death of an unimportant character and a departure from Snoke being the placeholder for the emperor. The fact that Rey's parents have been established to be not important also pleases me as a departure from the originals and as I like it as its own story.

 

Things I did not like: the entire subplot trying to find the code breaker (or whatever that's called). I came to dislike those characters. And Rey is quite a boring character too. I mean, Luke in the originals was kind of a Mary Sue as well but he was following the hero's journey religiously, and that's a well known working formula. While Rey seem to be played by ear as far as plot goes and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere interesting. She is good at everything and she will save the galaxy. Maybe they can still cram the hero's journey in this character all in one movie but that would feel clumsy. Sure, she already had call to adventure, mentor, allies, but she still needs an ordeal and everything after that, she needs to lose her hand and almost die or something like that.

 

So I look forward to watching the next one in an actual movie theater :)



#7 Bikerdude

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 06:06 AM

Ihavent seen it yet, so am skipping this thread for now.



#8 Springheel

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 10:44 AM

I have come to dislike the film for 3 main reasons.

1.  It craps all over the established Star Wars universe.

2.  It ignores or dismisses major plot points established in The Force Awakens.

3.  The film constantly builds up to moments that have no payoff or meaning.

 

1.  It craps all over the established Star Wars universe.

If you're going to create a movie in an established universe, you should be obligated to follow the established rules of that universe.

a)  This movie changes what the Force is and how it works.  Leia's "superman" flight was patently ridiculous.  We've never seen the force used that way before.  We've never seen the Force used to create illusions before (illusions that can actually be physically touched, additionally).  And somehow, the Force has become something that anyone can use with no training at all.  Remember how much Luke--who was strong in the force--had to train with Yoda before he could lift a single rock?  Even after months of training, he still couldn't lift his X-wing.  Rey, who has two lessons with Luke, is able to lift twenty massive boulders and hold them all in the air at the same time.  A little kid, with zero training, is able to use the force to grab a broom??  Even Anakin, supposedly the most powerful Jedi ever, never did anything like that as a kid.

b )  The movie completely destroys the character of Luke Skywalker.  Luke, who risks his life because he sees a spark of goodness inside his father (the most evil man in the galaxy), is going to murder his nephew in his sleep because he feels some darkness in him??  Give me a break.  

c)  The "Lightspeed as a weapon" moment was cool, sure, but it kind of raises the question of why that has never been done before?  Why bother getting the plans for the death-star?  Just hyperspace a ship with a volunteer through it.  It changes the way the universe works (and from a story point of view, if they could do that, why not do it with one of the earlier ships that just got blown up anyway?  Lightspeed your medical frigate and the chase is over).

 

d)  The movie destroys the concept of heroism, good guys and bad guys, arguably the main themes of the Star Wars universe.  There are no heroes in The Last Jedi.  Fin tried to have a heroic moment to sacrifice himself to save his friends, but that was taken away from him (in a ridiculous moment where he is accused of acting out of hate rather than "protecting what he loves").  Po is accused of being a "hothead" when he tries to save everyone.  Luke is just a bitter old man.  Rey is more concerned with Kylo, who she barely knows, than with helping her friends (although she still manages to somehow get to the right place to save them, easily, at the end).  No one in the galaxy is willing to answer the Rebel's distress call.  And we also have the moment where we see that the Rebels buy their weapons from the same evil capitalist bastards as the First Order, so they're really just all the same, right?  You'll blow up them today and they'll blow up you tomorrow, it's all hopeless and meaningless and part of the anarcho-capitalist machine.

 

The scene where Luke looks at his light-saber and then contemptuously tosses it over his shoulder, basically encapsulates how this movie treats the universe that spawned it.

 

 

2.  It ignores or dismisses major plot points established in The Force Awakens.

This is the second movie of a trilogy.  You can't just ignore things the first movie does and still be a successful sequel.  But this movie consistently does.

a)  Biggest question of the first movie was, who is Rey?  Everyone seems to know her.  Kylo implies on multiple occasions that he knows something about her; Snoke seems to know something about her; she can sense Luke's lightsaber and then it seems to speak to her; she is better with the force than any untrained user we've ever seen. Clearly there is a story there, right?  Nope.  She's just a nobody (which makes her even more of a Mary Sue).

b ) Snoke.  Who is this super bad guy who has somehow managed to recreate the Empire and turn Kylo to the dark side without even meeting him?  How did he get so powerful in the dark side of the force?  Where did he come from, since all the Sith were supposedly dead after Return of the Jedi?  Clearly there's a story there, right?  Nope.  He's just a plot point and now he's gone, so don't worry about it.

c)  The Knights of Ren.  Remember them?  There's a story there, right?  Nope.  Just forget you ever heard of them.

d)  Remember how the rebels blew up the First Order's super weapon?  That must have really impresssed people and gotten them a lot of attention, right?  Nope.  The First Order is still super powerful, and the rebels have fewer ships and friends now than they did in Return of the Jedi.

e)  Wow, they finally found Luke!  Remember how he left a secret map so they could find him if they ever needed him?  Remember how people died trying to find and protect that map, because it was so important to find him?  Clearly there will be a story there, right?  Nope.  He's on the island to die, not to help.  Why did he leave a map?  Just forget you heard about that.


3.  How many things in the movie actually work or result in a meaningful accomplishment?

 

Beyond being a bad Star Wars movie, the movie was just bad story-telling in general.

 

a)  The movie begins with this dramatic space battle where they (rather implausibly) take out a major First Order ship.  This results in...nothing.  No one celebrates, because lots of people died.  The First Order isn't crippled in any way; they continue to pursue the rebels without pause.

b )  Rey and Kylo spend the entire movie talking to each other; Rey leaves Luke to go "save" Kylo; Kylo kills Snoke rather than kill Rey; they have an (admittedly awesome) fight together, and this results in ...nothing.  The moment the fight is over, Rey and Kylo immediately go back to fighting each other again and before you know it she's back in the Falcon fighting with the Rebels and he's chasing them, just like before.  This was a massive story opportunity completely wasted.

c)  Yoda appears and helps Luke burn the Jedi books, giving a big speech about how pointless they are (and presumably they ARE pointless, since no Jedi we've ever seen has learned about the force by reading anything).  What a dramatic moment of destroying the past, which results in...nothing.  The books aren't actually in the tree, you silly viewers, they're in the Falcon!  Because Rey valued them so much she stole them??

d)  Luke has this awesome scene with Kylo at the end, and for a moment he seems like the Luke Skywalker we knew.  He gives a callback speech about being cut down and then we learn Luke isn't even there...so he can't be killed by Kylo anyway.  What a cool new power!  This will set up a final confrontation between Kylo and Luke in the last movie right?  Nope, it results in...nothing.  Luke just dies because reasons.  Why bother having him do this projection thing if he was just going to die anyway?  (And what the hell was with the illusionary dice he gave to Leia?)

e)  The entire Las Vegas planet plot.  Goes absolutely nowhere and accomplishes nothing, other than letting some animals loose (though they didn't free the slaves, amusingly)  and showing how evil income inequality is.  You're welcome, SJWs.

f) Rey's moment in "the cave".  Luke sees himself as Darth Vader.  Most dramatic part of the movie.  Rey sees herself, over and over and over again.  (There's a message there, I'm sure).  Rey is warned not to go in there.  It's a scary place full of the dark side.  But she risks it anyway and accomplishes...nothing.  There's nothing down there.  Silly viewers, you thought you were going to see her parents?  Suckers.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Kylo Ren says, "Let the past die.  Kill it if you have to." 

Well, mission accomplished, Rian Johnson.


 

    Ihavent seen it yet, so am skipping this thread for now.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't expect people who haven't seen the movie to post in a thread discussing the movie...?
 


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#9 stumpy

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 01:17 PM

Rey is a lot more powerful than Luke Skywalker, its kind of hinted at when she cracks the rock she's standing on during the slow motion sequence on the island. She seems to have the force ability to read Jedi's for what they are, eg 1st film she learnt her light sabre technique from Kylo Ren when she closes her eyes during the fight sequence on the breaking up bigger death star, and learns Jedi techniques that way instead of the normal way, so she would have learnt all she needed just being in the presence of Luke.

Luke went looking for the origin of the Jedi and was disappointed in what he found, and became resentful in what he found, that's why he thinks the Jedi should end.

Luke was supposed to bring balance to the force, but you can only bring balance to the force if you are willing to use both sides, Luke never excepted the dark side and use it with the light side.

 

the script was vetted by the bosses of LucasFilms and then passed on to the director, rewrites done by Carrie Fisher, then vetted by bosses at LucasFilms.

 

problems are caused because LucasFilms expect people to have seen all the stories, this would include the current cartoon series, the lego starwars the force awakens (which gives a bigger background story than the film does), read all the books that are considered cannon to the current star wars universe, played battlefront 2.


Edited by stumpy, 05 January 2018 - 01:29 PM.


#10 Abusimplea

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 02:22 PM

Why can't we use hyperspeed as a weapon? (Plenty valid for me, like riding an asteroid straight through Earth using hyperspace.)

Hyperspace travel is interrupted by strong gravity sources. Some star destroyers could pull ships out of hyperspace or prevent them from entering by using gravity well projectors.

So you can not drive an asteroid in hyperspace through a planet. But you can drive it near the planet and let remaining velocity do the rest.

But if you are the imperium you can use gravity wells top protect your planets and use a reusable death star to destroy the other side's planets.
 

Why do we have to grab the light saber to kill an opponent? Why not just use the force to manipulate the light saber and eviscerate them from the side? (This is the smart alternative to the Luke/Vader/Palpatine scene in Return of the Jedi.)

When being a force user and having mastered telekinesis, you could just use the force to break the target's neck. No need to use a light saber as a proxy.

When using the saber, it may be much easier to control it directly with body movement than by force though.


Edited by Abusimplea, 05 January 2018 - 02:22 PM.


#11 Springheel

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 04:30 PM

Rey is a lot more powerful than Luke Skywalker, its kind of hinted at when she cracks the rock she's standing on during the slow motion sequence on the island. She seems to have the force ability to read Jedi's for what they are, eg 1st film she learnt her light sabre technique from Kylo Ren when she closes her eyes during the fight sequence on the breaking up bigger death star, and learns Jedi techniques that way instead of the normal way, so she would have learnt all she needed just being in the presence of Luke.

 

 

So Rey is more powerful than the most powerful Jedi we've ever seen before, able to beat them with no training at all.  She can mind control people with no training.  She can move objects with no training.  She can beat trained Jedi in combat even though she's never even ignited a lightsaber before.  She can just suck the knowledge right out of people and then beat them with their own knowledge (although not Snoke, apparently)?

 

All of that MIGHT be acceptable if she was some kind of special super force user...but there's no indication that this is the case.  In the film's own words, she's a nobody.  No one makes a fuss wondering how she does what she does--everyone just accepts it, like we're supposed to accept Leia can fly and some random kid can force-grab a broom.

 

 

Luke was supposed to bring balance to the force,

 

 

When was this ever said about Luke?

 

I mean, Luke in the originals was kind of a Mary Sue as well

 

 

I strongly disagree with this.  In the first movie, Luke didn't know anything, other than the fact that he was a talented pilot (of one-man craft--he didn't know what the buttons on the Falcon did).  He was out of his depth in the Cantina; he wasn't a good shot with a blaster; he had no special skills that helped while they were on the Death Star....he didn't do anything extra special other than making an especially hard shot at the end of the movie. Even in the second movie, he almost dies of exposure, he struggles with training and fails several times, and he falls into a trap at the end and is beaten and almost killed by Vader.  Even in the third movie, he gets his ass handed to him by the Emperor.

 

That's nearly the opposite of a Mary Sue.


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#12 RPGista

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 06:22 PM

After reading Springheel's remarks, Im now happy I passed on watching this on the cinema. Sure, I might catch the movie sometime on netflix or something, but unlike most of you, I was already pretty disappointed with episode 7, and had no intention on keep following the series anymore. The new triology came up with a lot of potential, and indeed the visual part of it is very good. The actors were fine, I like Oscar Isaac and Adam Driver a lot (they are both on Inside Lewin Davis, brilliant film, watch that. Oscar Isaac is also acting alongside Domhnall Gleeson on Ex-Machina, very good film, watch that one as well)... Anyway, they somehow revived the original cast, a lot of money behind it, a lot of possibilities for new talent and new directions now that George Lucas was not hogging it. But instead of going wild and being cool, they blow it big time, pathetically choosing to do a blatant remake of the original film at the same time as presenting a convulated sequel to the classic triology. That was too bizarre for me. They did the same with Terminator, a mix of remake and sequel in a single movie. Jurassic world was in the same vein, it takes place after the original and references it, at the same time it "reimagines" it in absurd ways. All of them resulted in rushed and ridiculous pieces of film, compared the original material they were taking their stuff from. Im not even being the "get off my lawn" old guy, that likes his things the way he remembers them - with todays talent and computer technology, theres so much potential for reimiagining inspirational works of the past. Its just that the market wont allow it, I guess. The positive part of episode 7 were the new storylines introduced, like Rey looking for a mentor in Luke, the new villains, how they were going to clash with the new (and old) good guys. But appearently they didnt really take advantage of what they had to work with, based on the viewer reviews Ive been reading. So I guess I'll comment more when I see this on a friends house or cable tv. They sure wont miss my puny reais (the currency here). They are doing better than ever. 

 

For the record Im not a big star wars fan nowadays but I do still enjoy the fantasy setting quite a lot. I liked Rogue One, specially the vader scene at the end. They even realeased a Darth Vader limited series on comicbooks that I felt really captured the spirit of the character (I was really surprised, most if not all star wars comicbooks I had perused seemed like complete crap). The art alone is worth checking out an issue or two. It was done by Gillen (writter) and Larroca (artist). It gets a bit colorful during the run but the tone of it still managed to remain respectful and accurate to the character, at least in my view. It goes from 1 to around 25 issues. In case anyone missed that and is looking for something star wars that is recent and still cool.


Edited by RPGista, 05 January 2018 - 06:32 PM.


#13 jaxa

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 07:38 PM

like we're supposed to accept Leia can fly and some random kid can force-grab a broom.

 

Drawing on only the original trilogy, it was said that the Force binds all living things. Everyone could use it, but only a few do use it. It's fine for a kid to grab a broom with it after being inspired by some budding rebel heroes.

 

Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker told Luke in Return of the Jedi that he would recruit Leia if Luke did not join him. Plus you haven't seen what she had been doing in the decades between the films. If your brother was the greatest (or last standing) Jedi, why wouldn't you take a couple of quick lessons?

 

About the whole parentage thing, Anakin Skywalker was kind of a nobody. Actually, his mother was a nobody and his father was... The Force. So he became a Fallen Jesus kind of character. Yeah, I don't think we need to care that much about the Force making stronger "seed". It's kinda like Harry Potter: Jedi usually give birth to kids who could become Jedi, but sometimes one will come out of nowhere. Maybe even with no dad.

 

I'm not telling you to accept Leia flying back onto the ship; it was a ridiculous scene. Or Rey learning how to use the force in a few minutes (The Force Awakens Real Fast). I'm just trying to lay out why it's not as bad as it looks.



#14 Springheel

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 08:29 PM

Drawing on only the original trilogy, it was said that the Force binds all living things. Everyone could use it, but only a few do use it. It's fine for a kid to grab a broom with it after being inspired by some budding rebel heroes.

 

 

Where did we ever see someone not trained in the Force use it to move an object?  Anakin was supposed to be the strongest ever in the force, and the best he could do as a kid was have really fast reflexes. 

 

Plus you haven't seen what she had been doing in the decades between the films. If your brother was the greatest (or last standing) Jedi, why wouldn't you take a couple of quick lessons?

 

 

Let's pretend she did take a "couple quick lessons".  Let's pretend somehow she survived the explosion, the explosive decompression, and floating in space.  Where has it ever been demonstrated that you can use the Force to fly? 

 

Both of these things have no precedent in the Star Wars universe.  Some people will be fine with that, but I happen to think that movies taking place inside a particular universe should play by the established rules of that universe.   Otherwise, you might as well have people using the force to teleport around, summon dragons, and stop time.

 

Anakin Skywalker was kind of a nobody. Actually, his mother was a nobody and his father was... The Force. So he became a Fallen Jesus kind of character.

 

 

Yes, and when he was discovered people couldn't get over how powerful he was.  It was a big deal.  Obi-wan was so impressed he thought he was the fulfillment of prophecy.  It wasn't just accepted as normal.  (and even Anakin had to be TRAINED before he could do anything jedi-like) 

 

By contrast, no one goes on about how strong Rey is, or how weird it is that she's so powerful.  No one wonders how she managed to beat Kylo.  Snoke even mocks Kylo for losing to an "untrained girl".  It's not just that she is strong in the force--that happens.  It's the idea that she can be THAT strong and effective with no training at all. 



#15 demagogue

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 04:28 AM

I thought the movie was par for the course for contemporary action movies. So I could honestly say I enjoyed it about as much as most other action movies coming out in recent years.

 

As a Star Wars movie, I thought it fell short of the standard for basically the reasons Springheel mentioned.

 

Re: the nitpicking complaint, the difference between plot holes and throwaway jokes in the original trilogy and this one in particular is that in the original trilogy, they were still within the boundaries of their world and were trying to be authentic to the characters' actual experiences... When Leia is asking if someone could get this walking carpet out of her way, she's expressing her impatience to the walking carpet with the intention of annoying it, not cracking a joke to us per se, although it's funny because of how it fits within that actual situation in a funny way... whereas in this movie they were pretty hamfistedly winking at the audience and it stretches credibility that people in that world would naturally act like that in that situation. They were performing more for us than for each other. E.g. (spoiler), if Luke wanted to express that the Jedi ways are pointless, in that situation he probably wouldn't perform a clown act in tossing the lightsaber because it doesn't mean anything to Rey. He'd just shake his head and say "this is pointless", and throw it aside.

 

But whatevs. Contemporary audiences want to be transparently performed to. They want their entertainment to carry its "we're entertaining you" badge on its sleeve as conspicuously as possible. So it goes. The saving grace is that there are also numerous indie films coming out, some of which still practice cinéma-vérité to a respectable degree.

 

Edit: I liked the fight scenes & the battle on the salt flats anyway, and much of the art direction and visual style were very nice.


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#16 Destined

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 06:47 AM

I am a bit torn regarding the movie. Purely visual it was really, really great. I loved the salt crusted planet and the critters with the salt crytals in their fur. I also liked the use of light and dark to indicate the alignment of people. One scene that sticks in my head (although it was from episode VII) is the one with Kylo and Han Solo, wehere Han is in the light and Kylo also has some light in his backfround, but as he kills Han, the sun is completley consumed and Kylo goes full dark. There are more examples of great visuals in the film, so from an aesthetic view it was great. Also, the space battles were very well done. For the first time in a Star Wars movie you could actually see the shields (or at least theyr effect) around space ships, which I found quite nice.

But then came the plot. I can only agree with most people here that the plot was very underwhelming and had a whole lot of wasted potential. I actually thought at first that they really go the "the balance between light and dark side is the solution"-way. And I would really have appreatiated it. In my opinion they already layed a lot of hints that it will go that way: I interpereted the "capitalism is bad" talk as a way to say "The alliance is not all good" and Finn's character as a way to say "Not all Stormtroopers are bad, they are just brainwashed". Luke understood that the Jedi way cannot be the right solution. So I thought the reason to burning the books was to leave behind the old ways of teaching the force and find new, better ones. Kylo teaming up with Rey would have been perfect for a force wielding couple that balance each other out (some kind of yin and yang thing). I thought this was the reason they were connected. But finally, they just decided to throw all these indications and opportunites over board and came back to the "light side is good; dark side is evil" scheme that we always had in Star Wars and that I find quite boring.

Regarding Rey being a Mary Sue (as a non-native speaker I actually had to look up the term), I hope there will be an explanation. I don't really think that her parents were nobodies. Kylo could simply have said that to unsettle her. At least in that scene, I had the feeling that Kylo was not honest and just wanted to put Rey down, so I think there is still hope.

The main disappointment for me was Snoke and the fact that there was absolutely no information about him. There were tons of theories, but apparently he was really just a plot insturment without any background. I hated that.

 

I think Springheel makes a lot of good points, but there are a few I would like to comment on:

Leya's space scene really was ridiculous. Although I have to admit that she did not fly. She floated in space and did not need to defy gravity. One could argue that she used a force push on herself (I am not sure if this is possible, but as the Jedi can also jump very high, which I explained for myself with a force push on themselves, it may not be impossible) or something like that. Still, it was unnecessary. I wanted to write that the Luke's illusion was not touched, but forgot about the dice he gave to Leya. On the other hand, that may have been a way of him saying to her "this is just an illusion". I would have to rewatch this scene. I immdedately noticed that his beard was shorter and not grey, which was another indication that he was only an illusion (another point for good visuals), but did not know why. In the fight he was never hit and he did not use his lightsaber to strike at Kylo (if I remember correctly), so apart from the dice, the illusion was not touched. This is a point that I actually found well done. The fact that he could create this illusion some thousand light years away, is something else... Rey's ability with the force is absolutely overpowered, but I still have some hope that they will explain why (although Snoke is an indication that they won't). In general, I think it is good to create new ways in which to use the force, but I also agree that it would be better to have some explanation.

I don't think that Luke was out of character. It is true that it is not like him to want to kill Ben, but he is still just human and immediately regretted his decision. Unfortunately, by then it was already too late. I actually liked Luke's character in this movie. Still, it does not explain why he left a map if he did not want to be found. But that is less his character and more another plot hole / dismissed plot line.

I don't think that they want to destroy heroism. They just want the universe to get more realistic. If you are in an army (or at least a militia) and you do not follow orders you will be demoted. Nobody questions Po's resolve (even the General with the purple hair, I forgot her name, is impressed by it), but his disobeying a direct order has to have consequences. Rey's decision to "help" Kylo is her hope to end the conflict in general, so I can understand that she pursues this goal instead of helping her friends in a fight. After she realises that she cannot end the conflict this way, she helps them out there. And not answering the distress call is also just realistic. It is a small force followed by a the first order. Most ships that could be sent by their allies would also be destroyed and would most likely draw ther First Order's attention on you. So the allies prefer to lay low and wait for another chance to attack. One that might have a better chance of success. However, I also was disappointed that Finn could not sacrifice himself (and by the reason even more so). For me it was neither a try to destroy heroism nor was it a try to be more realistic. It was a simple case of "we don't want a main character to die". And this takes out a lot of tension and fun, and is, in my opinion, plain boring.

I completely agree with your points about dismissing plots that have been established and instead introducing new plots (and characters like Rose) that are completely unnecessary. But I acually found one point through which the Casino plot did accomplish something: Without it, the First Order would not have known about the cloaked ships. Still, it was far too long for the effect it had.



#17 Springheel

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 09:24 AM

so apart from the dice, the illusion was not touched.

 
Luke takes Leia's hands when he meets her.  Kylo Ren also picks up the dice before then they disappear (which was long after Luke disappeared).  They certainly appeared to be solid.
 

But I acually found one point through which the Casino plot did accomplish something: Without it, the First Order would not have known about the cloaked ships. Still, it was far too long for the effect it had.

 

 

I don't think that's a plus...that is another moment when the film completely undermined work it did earlier, by taking Purple's escape plan and making it pointless.

 

Also, did they ever explain how the code-cracker guy knew about the cloaked ships in the first place? 



#18 Destined

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 09:55 AM

 
Luke takes Leia's hands when he meets her.  Kylo Ren also picks up the dice before then they disappear (which was long after Luke disappeared).  They certainly appeared to be solid.

You ar eright, I forgot about that.

 

 

I don't think that's a plus...that is another moment when the film completely undermined work it did earlier, by taking Purple's escape plan and making it pointless.

 

Also, did they ever explain how the code-cracker guy knew about the cloaked ships in the first place? 

I agree. As I said: The plot was not the best.

 

I am not sure if Finn and Rose told him about it. I had to go to the toilet during the escape scene, so I actually did not see when/how they met the code breaker. It could even have happened off-screen. Either way, it is the only logical explanation that he would know.



#19 Springheel

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 10:41 AM

I don't think Finn and Rose knew about the plan either, did they?  Otherwise, why were they bothering to try and disable the tracker in the first place?  I don't think they talked to Purple or Leia, because they would have ordered them not to do it, so the only one who could have told them was Po.  I can't remember if he did.



#20 jaxa

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 10:50 AM

I actually thought at first that they really go the "the balance between light and dark side is the solution"-way. And I would really have appreatiated it. In my opinion they already layed a lot of hints that it will go that way: I interpereted the "capitalism is bad" talk as a way to say "The alliance is not all good"

 

They kind of did do all those things, but undermined it in the third act by telling Luke we didn't really need the jedi to end after all cuz whatever. And making Rey seemingly purely good and Kylo evil like you said.

 

The hacker telling them about arms dealers selling ships and weapons to both sides was a great moment. The "everyone has good and bad in them" theme is not inconsistent with the previous films at all in my opinion. It's just thrown out the window in the third act.

 

Finn's character as a way to say "Not all Stormtroopers are bad, they are just brainwashed".

 

Maybe he does exist for that purpose, but the stormtroopers were essentially corrected from their state in the prequels (and I assume the middle trilogy) by changing them from obedient clones (of Boba Fett's dad, no less) and into "real" people. You can't sympathize much with a clone that was genetically programmed to be totally obedient, but I don't think that any of the current stormtroopers are clones. They are just hustling for that galactic paycheck. Any number of them could pull a Finn, but most don't.

 

Luke understood that the Jedi way cannot be the right solution. So I thought the reason to burning the books was to leave behind the old ways of teaching the force and find new, better ones.

 

In probably one of the most overlooked moments of the film, it is shown that Rey actually took the books with her beforehand and stored them in a drawer on the Millennium Falcon. So Yoda was actually being literal when he said that "Rey has everything she needs". I didn't notice this myself, I just read about it later. Wow!

 

https://www.popsugar...t-Jedi-44363335

 

 
Luke takes Leia's hands when he meets her.  Kylo Ren also picks up the dice before then they disappear (which was long after Luke disappeared).  They certainly appeared to be solid.

 

i thought the dice also disappeared on-screen because they were an illusion, but I can't recall. Whatever it was, it was hard to pay attention because I was trying not to laugh at Luke's Force constipation death. I somehow knew he was going to die then and there even though he was just making a collect call.

 

I interpreted his ability to seemingly touch things/people as trickery (pushing and pulling at a distance) rather than a plot device hole. As for doing it from light years away, it is just a crude extension of Yoda lifting the X-Wing and saying "size matters not". I figured there was some kind of catalyst or focusing device that aided Luke in achieving this, and possibly a backlash that caused him to die right there. The less thought about it, the better lol.



#21 Springheel

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 11:50 AM

In probably one of the most overlooked moments of the film, it is shown that Rey actually took the books with her beforehand and stored them in a drawer on the Millennium Falcon. So Yoda was actually being literal when he said that "Rey has everything she needs". I didn't notice this myself, I just read about it later. Wow!

 

 

Yoda also said that the books were pointless, so I don't buy that this was an especially clever moment crafted by the writers.  It was another moment of "this looks like it matters, but it doesn't". 

 

There was absolutely no reason for Rey to take the books in the first place--she didn't express any interest in them, is a super force user without them, and would be (as far as she knows) stealing them!

 

Anyone want to place bets that we never see or hear about those books again?



#22 Destined

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 06:27 PM

Maybe he does exist for that purpose, but the stormtroopers were essentially corrected from their state in the prequels (and I assume the middle trilogy) by changing them from obedient clones (of Boba Fett's dad, no less) and into "real" people. You can't sympathize much with a clone that was genetically programmed to be totally obedient, but I don't think that any of the current stormtroopers are clones. They are just hustling for that galactic paycheck. Any number of them could pull a Finn, but most don't.

Stormtroopers are not clones anymore, but in Episode VII they are clearly depicted as indoctrinated from a very young age. At some point Captain Phasma (by the way another character that is introduced as somehow important but ultimately completely useless) talks to another guy and asks him if Finn has shown any abnormal behaviour and that he is to be sent away for "reprogramming" or soemthing like that. So, even though the stromtroopers are no clones, they are still brainwashed.

 

I also did completely overlook the books in the Falcon, but agree with Springheel that they are not really necessary for Rey and most likely will be ignored. Another option would be that Rey founds a new order of Jedi Knights and uses these books as a basis. Maybe this is supposed to be the big reveal for Episode IX. I would not put it past them at this point...






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