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How do you use holy water?


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#1 wanderer

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 06:46 PM

I select holy water; hit use; a clock comes up and starts ticking off 30 seconds; I shoot water arrows at the skeleton guard; hit him in the face twice and nothing happens. It doesn't even slow him down. If anything, it just makes them run right at you faster. I don't think holy water works. If you have to shoot him a dozen times, it's pointless. It's a bow and arrow, not a machine gun. I don't get it.


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#2 chakkman

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 06:52 PM

You're doing it correctly. If you mean a Revenant by "skeleton guard", i'm not sure if they even can be killed with holy water arrows.



#3 wanderer

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 07:39 PM

You're doing it correctly. If you mean a Revenant by "skeleton guard", i'm not sure if they even can be killed with holy water arrows.

The wiki just says holy water is lethal to the undead. I thought that would include Revenants. It should at least stun them so I can run away or sneak passed them.



#4 stumpy

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 09:47 PM

I think who ever makes the map has to add whether holy water has any effect on undead when the undead are added, else holy water doesn't work.



#5 Destined

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 01:56 AM

I just saw that the response to holy that results in damage_holy, is indeed commented out in the base defnition for undead. I can only assume that this was done by mistake... This is the according part of the def file (tdm_ai_humanoid_undead.def in version 2.05):

// greebo: Add another response for undead to HOLY stims
    "sr_class_5"                "R"
    "sr_type_5"                 "STIM_HOLY"
    "sr_state_5"                "1"
    "sr_script_STIM_HOLY"       "response_holyStim"

    /*"sr_effect_5_1"             "effect_damage"
    "sr_effect_5_1_arg1"        "_SELF"
    "sr_effect_5_1_arg2"        "atdm:damage_holy_water"*/

	// grayman - DO NOT provide stim responses for STIM_FLASH or STIM_BLIND.
	// This makes undead immune to flashbombs and flashmines.

	// grayman #3857 - ability to participate in a coordinated search
	"canSearchCooperatively"	"0"

I almost never use holy water, so I cannot say since when this is the case, though.



#6 Obsttorte

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 02:56 AM

The damage is handled via the "response_holyStim" script function called as a response to the holy water stim. Revenants have a lot of health, though, so two shots may not be enough.


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#7 AluminumHaste

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 10:48 AM

Which is why I found the sword faster and more economical than wasting precious water arrows, which are one of the most powerful items in the game.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#8 wesp5

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 01:10 PM

Which is why I found the sword faster and more economical than wasting precious water arrows, which are one of the most powerful items in the game.

Then something is indeed wrong there and the holy water arrows are making too little damage to revenants...



#9 Destined

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 01:42 PM

According to the holy_damage def, the holy water arrow should deal 140 damage, while the revenant has 180 health. So, it should be dead with two shots, which is not tto much, considering that the revenant is suppsed to be one of the stronger undead enemies.



#10 esme

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 06:07 AM

I almost never use holy water, so I cannot say since when this is the case, though.


I rarely use water arrows on undead of any sort in TDM, there are usually barely enough to put out the torches I want extinguished



#11 wanderer

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:55 AM

I rarely use water arrows on undead of any sort in TDM, there are usually barely enough to put out the torches I want extinguished

That's part of my point. Holy water requires you to use up a rare special item, it has a thirty second timer and it is expensive in water arrows. It should do something.

 

I was at the end of Flakebridge Monastery. There is a little side room in the crypt with water arrows and holy water. I thought the game designer was suggesting I take out the Revenant who was guarding the magic book with the holy water. I tried it over and over again. In the end I just snuck passed him.



#12 Abusimplea

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 01:48 PM

Holy water is just ugly to use and doesn't rock enough. Did not use water arrows for some versions now, but this thread does not sound like they got more usefull since then...

 

Instead of a timer it would be much better to have seperate permanent holy water arrows that are guaranteed to take out a lesser undead with one shot (revenants taking two or three depending on hit area) regardless of awareness (because why should awareness matter when it comes to holy stuff against mindless creatures).

Then they would be good as a solution against undead before and after detection.

Could also have the holy water flasks change some (three to five) water arrows permanently to holy water arrows on use.

Flasks and arrows could also "bless" ground they hit when thrown/fired. Blessed ground could be deadly for the next lesser undead that enters it.

Undead "dieing" due to beeing holy-shot or entering blessed ground could burst up in flames and scream a bit. That would make it a lot more satisfying to use the holy stuff.


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#13 wesp5

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 02:13 PM

Could also have the holy water flasks change some (three to five) water arrows permanently to holy water arrows on use.

Flasks and arrows could also "bless" ground they hit when thrown/fired. Blessed ground could be deadly for the next lesser undead that enters it.

I like both of these ideas! Also the old suggestion that throwing a whole flask at an undead should kill it. But as far as I know the TDM team never changed anything affecting global gameplay as much as these changes would do :(...


Edited by wesp5, 07 March 2018 - 02:13 PM.


#14 Durandall

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 02:30 PM

I don't generally kill anything I don't have to, but I'll throw my vote in.
As they are, holy water potions are all but useless.
Thrown grenade style like Thief 3 would be cool.
No need for a puddle, just a splash effect and some radius holy damage.
Enough to pop a zombie or two. Maybe a revenant on a direct hit.
 



#15 Springheel

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 02:52 PM

The first thing to do would be to confirm whether holy water is behaving the way it is supposed to, or whether there is a bug in play.  Is holy water killing zombies, skeletons, and revenants?  If so, how many hits does it take on average difficulty settings?  IIRC, it should take one head-shot to kill a zombie or skeleton, and two to kill a revenant.

 

Keep in mind that impact damage is reduced if you hit a creature where it has armour, or in a non-vital area like an arm or leg.


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#16 Durandall

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:31 PM

The first thing to do would be to confirm whether holy water is behaving the way it is supposed to, or whether there is a bug in play.  Is holy water killing zombies, skeletons, and revenants?  If so, how many hits does it take on average difficulty settings?  IIRC, it should take one head-shot to kill a zombie or skeleton, and two to kill a revenant.

 

Keep in mind that impact damage is reduced if you hit a creature where it has armour, or in a non-vital area like an arm or leg.

 

A quick test show results consistent with what you said. Two headshots for a revenant, one for a zombie.

I could've swore holy water was less potent. Maybe I was hitting a revenant in the armor, but that was some time ago.

I still think it would be neat to have holy water be grenade-like with a guaranteed single kill and no need to weigh whether a water arrow is worth it.



#17 Atomica

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 01:32 AM

.


Edited by Atomica, 01 August 2018 - 11:36 PM.


#18 chakkman

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 04:33 PM

That's part of my point. Holy water requires you to use up a rare special item, it has a thirty second timer and it is expensive in water arrows. It should do something.

 

I was at the end of Flakebridge Monastery. There is a little side room in the crypt with water arrows and holy water. I thought the game designer was suggesting I take out the Revenant who was guarding the magic book with the holy water. I tried it over and over again. In the end I just snuck passed him.

 

Interestingly, i had the same issues with Revenants in exactly the same mission. Either they're very hard to kill by default, or there's something about the Flakebridge Monastery mission. I also remember i needed more than 5 holy water arrows to kill them. It's been years since i played that mission though.



#19 HMart

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 04:26 PM

Imo holy water being a special magical item shouldn't take into account the armor of the enemy or where it strikes, why, it's magical...and if you really want to give it real world reasons, then it is water, it can pass very small holes and old armor is everything but watertight and if you think of it like the blood acid from the alien movies then armor has nothing on it.  :P   






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