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#26 GilGiy

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 02:04 PM

 

I'm pretty sure that's almost impossible to do now:

 

Lol true that, never mind :blink:



#27 Abusimplea

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 07:48 PM

I experienced the blackjack as the most reliable tool in TDM.

You can't blackjack guards wearing helmets featuring a face grill. But you can blackjack every other living human being. I mostly aim for the center of the head wich also seem to work well when blackjacking from the side or a sleeping person. Never target the shoulders and always lean forward for blackjacking sleepers (and hit em in the face).

 

I have grabbed a blackjacked and still falling body before it could make a sound multiple times (but wouldn't call it easy). So it should at least always be possible to snatch the last guard from a chain if you can get to him without beeing detected. You can then drop the body at a suitable location and get back to wait for the return of the chain.

 

Some other generally usefull "workflows":

 

Douse or switch off a light and wait in a hiding spot opposite to the light or switch. When an AI tries ro relight it, it will face the light or switch and you have some seconds to sneak up and blackjack it from behind while it stands still and plays the relighting animation.

 

AI most opf the time closes used doors. As for relighting stuff, AI needs to face the door to close it. Often there is a nice hiding spot near enough so you can quickly step behind the AI and blackjack it closes the door.

 

AI generally reacts to sound. So if you are not going for a ghost walkthough, you can lure them to some better blackjack locations by using noise arrows or throwing stuff around. Try to not alert them so much, that they draw their weapons, because most AI are immune to the blackjack when in such an alerted state.

Generally, AI seems to like staring at the impact location of whatever you shot or threw some seconds before turning around allowing you to walk up and use the blackjack if the flooring (or a moss arrow) allows.

 

Speaking of moss arrows: You can sprint on moss without making a noise - even if it lies above metal or tiles. Generally you never really need moss arrows, but they can ease the blackjacking business quite a bit.

 

Camping in a dark room for a while to blackjack every AI that visits it is the most logical (and quite lazy) thing to do when entering a new area (such as the perimeter of a mansion, a floor, or some other location that is epected to be frequented by AI).

 

Not about blackjacking, but you can safely douse a torch carried by an AI by firing a water arrow to something not too far above it. Most of the time torch-wielding guards are also constantly moving, so you don't feel like a cheater when pulling it off. But it is still the easiest way to deal with the torch of such AI and also worked on some elementals and burning undead in the past (save before trying).


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#28 Springheel

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 08:14 PM

Try to not alert them so much, that they draw their weapons, because most AI are immune to the blackjack when in such an alerted state.

 

 

Only if they're wearing a helmet.  If not, they can still be knocked out from behind (just not from the side or front).



#29 GilGiy

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 10:12 PM

Maybe I should start a new topic on the SFX "channel..." but here's my next "revision." since the s-effect I used for blackjack_sheath ended in a higher frequency it sounded more like an unsheath--so I set it as "blackjack_unsheath" and used a very similar sound that ended in a lower frequency for the "blackjack_sheath":

 


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#30 wesp5

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 02:55 AM

 

Only if they're wearing a helmet.  If not, they can still be knocked out from behind (just not from the side or front).

Is there a particular reason for this? Because either guards with open helmets should always behave like those without or they shouldn't! Having them different in different alarm states is illogical. Like either you can blackjack an open helmet or you can't.



#31 Anderson

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 04:15 AM

Is there a particular reason for this? Because either guards with open helmets should always behave like those without or they shouldn't! Having them different in different alarm states is illogical. Like either you can blackjack an open helmet or you can't.

 

I believe everything is consistent under the auspices of all types of helmets.


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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#32 Springheel

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 08:20 AM

Is there a particular reason for this? Because either guards with open helmets should always behave like those without or they shouldn't! Having them different in different alarm states is illogical. Like either you can blackjack an open helmet or you can't.

 

Guards with helmets are always harder to KO than guards without, which seems fairly intuitive.

 

It also seems reasonable that guards in higher alert states are harder to knock out than ones that are relaxed.

 

The way blackjacking works has been consistent for the last twelve years.

 

http://wiki.thedarkm...ay#Blackjacking


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#33 Anderson

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 08:48 AM

No offense intended.

But what is not as obvious as in Thief 1,2 and 3 is when a guard becomes alert. I.e. in the old games they played an animation usually before fully alert shortly earlier then drawing swords. Also many people point out that exclamation barks were the yappiest in older games. But depends on the NPC type.


Edited by Anderson, 29 April 2018 - 08:49 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#34 Springheel

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 08:53 AM

But what is not as obvious as in Thief 1,2 and 3 is when a guard becomes alert
 

 
Although the wiki phrasing is a bit misleading, a guard is considered "alert" in terms of KOing if their weapon is out, which is a state that should be easy to see.
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#35 Anderson

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 09:28 AM

 
Although the wiki phrasing is a bit misleading, a guard is considered "alert" in terms of KOing if their weapon is out, which is a state that should be easy to see.

 

True. But there is a feeling that you can land more blackjack hits per second in TDM when the NPC is alert before he draws the weapon out then in the old games.

But the older games felt slower anyway. Engine thing I guess.


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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#36 wesp5

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 02:05 PM

 

True. But there is a feeling that you can land more blackjack hits per second in TDM when the NPC is alert before he draws the weapon out then in the old games.

Exactly. I have the impression all guards are alert much earlier than they have their swords out resulting in you hitting them on the head without result without really knowning why! Unless you know about the alert states. Also in my opinion being alert or not can not help against someone hitting you on the head from behind! They can't see it coming, so why should they suddenly be invincible? I always hated that about TDM black jacking. Was this the same in the Thief games? In my opinion, blackjacking from behind should always work regardless of alertness state, the special helmets excluded of course...


Edited by wesp5, 29 April 2018 - 02:07 PM.


#37 chakkman

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 04:22 PM

I think, when the guards had their weapons drawn, and searched for you, it was also not possible to knock them out in the original Thief's. As you say though, it makes no sense, so, it shouldn't be something worthy to be taken over. The state of alert is irrelevant to the ability of being knocked out. As it quite severely affects gameplay, i'm not sure if it even should be considered to be changed, though. But, i also had it many, many times that blackjacking didn't work, and i didn't even know why, because the guards didn't actually already drew their weapons. As i mentioned earlier, i also think the blackjacking distance is too short as well though. And, i also don't like that you have to aim for the butt to hit the back of the head. Bottom line, it's really damn hard to blackjack in TDM, while it was a breeze in any of the original Thief's.


Edited by chakkman, 29 April 2018 - 04:23 PM.


#38 Springheel

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 05:31 PM

And, i also don't like that you have to aim for the butt to hit the back of the head

 

 

Who said you had to?



#39 AluminumHaste

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 05:34 PM

Yeah, that's the weirdest thing I've heard in a while. If that's how he's aiming, I'm not surprised he had so many issues.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#40 Abusimplea

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 06:10 PM

Also in my opinion being alert or not can not help against someone hitting you on the head from behind!

It's a game balancing thing. You have to wait in cover (if the alert state is not too high), waste your tools or otherwise work around the guard if it draws his weapon. But you can always quicksave before a blackjack attempt and just reload if steping on a stick (*g*) or hitting the AI's shoulder (or even the ceiling in some missions).
 

And, i also don't like that you have to aim for the butt to hit the back of the head.

In TDM close combat you have to aim at what you want to hit, to reliably hit it. So aim for the center of the head or slightly lower (but above the shoulders). Aiming in this case means to point the center of the screen at the point to hit. There is no crosshair but you can train by highlighting small frobable objects like coins.



#41 Anderson

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 02:41 AM

Exactly. I have the impression all guards are alert much earlier than they have their swords out resulting in you hitting them on the head without result without really knowning why! Unless you know about the alert states. Was this the same in the Thief games? 

 

Movement is faster in TDM. However NPC barks and yelling when spotting the PC are not as bombastic. I think that's causing this impression.

Thief Deadly Shadows also had an animation playing when backstabbing/blackjacking when you adjust yourself correctly. So, very rarely would you ever get such situations at all. It just prevents the NPC from turning around when you've catched him in the correct position.

Thief is just slower in movement. But at the same time lets the player run pretty fast in comparison to NPC's. Even when guards are in pursuit.

 

It's purely subjective IMHO but that's how it feels. If a guard is on a stroll when on patrol in Thief, in TDM it's almost like he's moving at least a quarter faster then that.


Edited by Anderson, 30 April 2018 - 02:42 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#42 wesp5

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 02:51 AM

It's a game balancing thing. You have to wait in cover (if the alert state is not too high), waste your tools or otherwise work around the guard if it draws his weapon.

By the way, will they ever sheath their swords again and if so, how long would that take. Otherwise waiting would make no sense at all...



#43 chakkman

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 05:34 AM

Yeah, that's the weirdest thing I've heard in a while. If that's how he's aiming, I'm not surprised he had so many issues.

 

You definitely can't aim for the head to knock someone out, as one would assume. For the butt might be a bit exaggerated, but, you get the picture. 

 

I think someone depicted the hitbox once, and, you'll have to be much closer to the guards to knock them out than in the original games, and, you have to aim low, obviously also because the hitbox is so small. At least i have no other explanation why it is so vastly different to the original Thief's. 


Edited by chakkman, 30 April 2018 - 05:37 AM.


#44 chakkman

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 05:38 AM

In TDM close combat you have to aim at what you want to hit, to reliably hit it. So aim for the center of the head or slightly lower (but above the shoulders). 

 

That doesn't work at all. The only thing remotely reliable (maybe works 30% of cases) seemed to aim for the neck, or lower. 

 

And, from a gameplay perspective, and for new players, that's quite unintuitive, when you actually want to hit the head, you'll want to aim for the head.

 

P.S.: Check this video:

 

 

He ALWAYS aims for the neck or lower (actually rather for the back than the neck). That's how it's done in TDM (well, WHEN it works, and you have the right distance, don't alert the guard by even walking up to him, instead of crawling (again, in Thief you could run towards the guards...).


Edited by chakkman, 30 April 2018 - 05:43 AM.


#45 Judith

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 06:36 AM

Just my 2 cents, I think blackjacking was really quite hard in older versions of the mod. But since I started mapping (since circa 2.05) and playing a bit more often, I got the impression this has been improved (not sure if that's really the case). If there's anything hard for me, it's the timing of the lockpicks (Trainer seems like Average to me). Also the guards reaction time, but I'd say this is connected to the way you get detected when lit. In general i think TDM standard lights are a bit too binary and harsh, but that's up to mappers. Also, if you ever teased guards in e.g. Deadly Shadows, you can see that their reaction time is reeaaaly slooow, they always play proper alert level barks, and then go to combat. TDM guards are much more efficient, they spring to action when they should.


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#46 Anderson

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:15 AM

Also, if you ever teased guards in e.g. Deadly Shadows, you can see that their reaction time is reeaaaly slooow, they always play proper alert level barks, and then go to combat. TDM guards are much more efficient, they spring to action when they should.

 

Slow motion taffers.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#47 Springheel

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:32 AM

By the way, will they ever sheath their swords again and if so, how long would that take. Otherwise waiting would make no sense at all...

 

Depends on what evidence they've seen.  If they have accumulated enough evidence to think there is an intruder, they won't put their weapons away.
 

 

(again, in Thief you could run towards the guards...).

 

 

Thief blackjacking was ridiculously easy and exploitable.  You could successfully KO a guard by running down a hallway and hitting them in the foot.  That's why people had to start creating artificial restrictions for themselves in order to keep the game even slightly challenging. 

 

TDM blackjacking isn't perfect--I'd like to remove the animation component so that there is no way to hit the ceiling or overshoot your target--but making it as easy as Thief was never our goal.


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#48 AluminumHaste

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:44 AM

If this gets any easier, I'm going to start doing this blindfolded.

 


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I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#49 AluminumHaste

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:51 AM

 

That doesn't work at all. The only thing remotely reliable (maybe works 30% of cases) seemed to aim for the neck, or lower. 

 

And, from a gameplay perspective, and for new players, that's quite unintuitive, when you actually want to hit the head, you'll want to aim for the head.

 

P.S.: Check this video:

 

 

He ALWAYS aims for the neck or lower (actually rather for the back than the neck). That's how it's done in TDM (well, WHEN it works, and you have the right distance, don't alert the guard by even walking up to him, instead of crawling (again, in Thief you could run towards the guards...).

Fen posted that in response to a video I made for him:

 


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#50 chakkman

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:01 AM



 

Thief blackjacking was ridiculously easy and exploitable.  You could successfully KO a guard by running down a hallway and hitting them in the foot.  That's why people had to start creating artificial restrictions for themselves in order to keep the game even slightly challenging. 

 

 

I'd counter that the Thief games were considered very hard in difficulty by the press, back in the days. And, yes, maybe it was a bit too easy to blackjack in the original Thief's. But, i don't feel like that is a reason to make it very hard instead. 

 

I can only repeat what i feel like is wrong with it:

 

- You don't have to aim for the head, but for the back.

- The blackjacking distance could be increased a bit.

- Guards are too sensitive/cautious. I don't know how it is supposed to be possible to blackjack a patrolling guard, when they already notice you walking. Again, in the original Thief's, you could run towards them.

 

Feel free to disagree. That'y my observation, comparing the original games to what is supposed to be a game which resembles them as close as possible. It does, in many regards, not so much in the blackjacking, IMO.

 

@AluminumHaste: "Don't get too close, don't aim too high". Enough said? That confirms all that i have written above. If you get even nearer, you have to aim even lower. Someone posted a sketch which showed the movement of the blackjack very well, and, the way it behaves, and the hitbox in TDM (which isn't very realistic, after all, in the real world, the upper body, as well as the shoulder and arm are a bit more flexible, and can account for nearer/further distance). I think all that it would take is to make it a bit more forgiving, and a bit more generous. IMO. YMMV. Just my 2c. Etc. If you feel like it's great, hey, fine. I disagree, if that's fine as well.

 

P.S.: Check these out as well: http://forums.thedar...ch&fromsearch=1

 

I'm sure one of those includes the sketches i was talking about. I'll see if i can find it.

 

Heh, i just noticed that i posted exactly the same things i post here in this thread: http://forums.thedar...-hell/?p=377528


Edited by chakkman, 30 April 2018 - 08:11 AM.





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