Jump to content


Photo

A few thoughts


  • Please log in to reply
100 replies to this topic

#51 AluminumHaste

AluminumHaste

    Darkmod Contributor

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6205 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:21 AM

 

- Guards are too sensitive/cautious.
 

 

Oh, that's already been in the game if you want it.

 

Attached File  darkmod_2018-04-30_09.20.21.jpg   353.45KB   0 downloads

 

Change the sight and hearing to whatever feels right for you.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#52 chakkman

chakkman

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1012 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:36 AM

Fair enough, and that's surely nothing related to blackjacking per se (even though i still wonder why they are supposed to hear you, when you walk over a stone surface, at least on the default dificulty, it should be rather resembling the old Thief's. You can always set it harder in the settings then, for the elite thieves). My other niggles with it stand though. :)



#53 Destined

Destined

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1560 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:36 AM

I vaguely remember that there was a console command that shows the hitbox for being KOed, but I cannot recall the command and cannot find it on teh forum. If someone knows, people could actually see, where they have to hit and how big the box really is. Most people here mainly have a subjective opinion, just guessing, how the box exactly looks. With this information discussing hitbox size etc would be much easier.

 

I personally have no difficulty blackjacking AI, but my hearing acuity is not set the highest setting (would have to look up, which one I atually have), so it may be that I can get to them easier than others complaining of not bein able to reach the AI without alerting them.



#54 AluminumHaste

AluminumHaste

    Darkmod Contributor

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6205 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 10:01 AM

To be clear, the videos I posted were with Hearing and Sight set to Challenging.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#55 chakkman

chakkman

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1012 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 11:54 AM

I vaguely remember that there was a console command that shows the hitbox for being KOed, but I cannot recall the command and cannot find it on teh forum. If someone knows, people could actually see, where they have to hit and how big the box really is. Most people here mainly have a subjective opinion, just guessing, how the box exactly looks. With this information discussing hitbox size etc would be much easier.

 

I actually found the post with the sketch i mentioned, by Springheel: http://forums.thedar...ction/?p=343108

 

I don't know how accurate that is, but... that area where a blackjack hit succeeds doesn't exactly look large, does it?

 

I didn't remember how many discussion on the same subject there already were, and that i was involved in most of those.


Edited by chakkman, 30 April 2018 - 11:56 AM.


#56 wesp5

wesp5

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 635 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 12:14 PM

 

Oh, that's already been in the game if you want it.

 

attachicon.gif darkmod_2018-04-30_09.20.21.jpg

 

Change the sight and hearing to whatever feels right for you.

Would it be possible to add a blackjacking slider there with options for helmeted guards e.g. like:

 

hard (alerted > invincible) medium (alerted > not invincible from behind) easy (alerted > not invincible at all)

 

As for the overall difficulty, I agree with chakkman. It might be easy for you developers playing the game all

the time, but for an occassional player like myself, it's annoying each time I come back to TDM how random

it seems! How about guards will only become invincible once their weapon is completely drawn, not before?


Edited by wesp5, 30 April 2018 - 12:15 PM.


#57 Abusimplea

Abusimplea

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 460 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 12:17 PM

By the way, will they ever sheath their swords again and if so, how long would that take. Otherwise waiting would make no sense at all...

They only do, if they are not that sure that there really is some intruder. But even then, it can take several minutes of waiting. So just reload if you quicksaved recently.
 

Obviously, i did it wrong all the time then. That explains the random failures i get in some missions .
 

But, i don't feel like that is a reason to make it very hard instead.

I am doing it wrong for years and still did not had the impression, that blackjacking is hard. It in fact felt so easy, that i never thought about investigating the cause of the rare failures i had (i am okay with not having full 100% accuracy). Try swordfighting if you want some really challenging TDM mechanic. I never managed to win a duel with a guard in TDM.
 

- You don't have to aim for the head, but for the back.
- The blackjacking distance could be increased a bit.
- Guards are too sensitive/cautious. I don't know how it is supposed to be possible to blackjack a patrolling guard, when they already notice you walking. Again, in the original Thief's, you could run towards them.

The video does not show aiming at the back - it shows aiming at slightly above the neck.

Blackjacking distance feels believable but is hard to measure ingame because of the first person view missing almost all of the body of the player.

You see blackjacking of patrolling guards in the videos. Pay attention to the flooring and remember to use moss arrows if it is still too hard. I often successfully run toward guards to blackjack them - but i never would do it on stone, tile or metal flooring without preparing the spot with one or more moss arrows.



#58 RPGista

RPGista

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1584 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 12:47 PM

Maybe I should start a new topic on the SFX "channel..." but here's my next "revision." since the s-effect I used for blackjack_sheath ended in a higher frequency it sounded more like an unsheath--so I set it as "blackjack_unsheath" and used a very similar sound that ended in a lower frequency for the "blackjack_sheath":

 

 

I like it!, definitely release the sound as an addon for the community  once you are satisfied with it, mappers could pick it up and replace the original with this mod, in their mission.



#59 RPGista

RPGista

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1584 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 12:50 PM

Try swordfighting if you want some really challenging TDM mechanic. I never managed to win a duel with a guard in TDM.

 

AluminiumHaste can show you the way.



#60 AluminumHaste

AluminumHaste

    Darkmod Contributor

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6205 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:04 PM

 

AluminiumHaste can show you the way.

 

:P

 

 

Or this:

 


  • RPGista, Anderson and GilGiy like this

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#61 chakkman

chakkman

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1012 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:13 PM

The video does not show aiming at the back - it shows aiming at slightly above the neck.

 

 

I think it highly depends how close you are to the guards. Try getting closer, you definitely have to aim much lower. Also makes sense when you take a look at Springheels sketch of the "hit area" or however to call it. When you are as far aways as shown in AluminiumHaste's videos, you already stand a chance to miss, because you don't hit at all. Take the one at 1:34, for example. I would say that is the most further you can be away for a knockout, otherwise you will just hit the air. Usually, i'm at least half the way more close to a guard, and have to aim much lower.



#62 Abusimplea

Abusimplea

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 460 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:15 PM

AluminiumHaste can show you the way.

Honestly i am fine with the difficulty of swordfighting and that i am not able to defeat guards in a fair duel in TDM. It should be almost impossible for a thief to win against armored guards in a duel. TDM does it right. At least if you - like me - never train swordfighting...

I only use the sword for assassinations - where i still prefer to blackjack my targets first before beheading them with an overhead swing of the sword while sitting in a safe spot where no one can see their blood spill on the floor (don't waste precious water arrows on other peolples blood).



#63 Springheel

Springheel

    Creative Director (retired)

  • Admin
  • 37376 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:16 PM

Try getting closer, you definitely have to aim much lower.

 

 

Yes, but weren't you complaining earlier that you have to get too close?  If you're further back, two of the three things you felt were wrong are fixed:

 

- You don't have to aim for the head, but for the back.

- The blackjacking distance could be increased a bit.

- Guards are too sensitive/cautious.

 

 

You don't have to aim for the back if you're further away, and you don't have to get so close if you're further away.  And staying further back is less likely to alert them.  It's like you're intentionally making it more difficult and then complaining that it's too difficult. 


TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#64 chakkman

chakkman

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1012 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:22 PM

Yes, but weren't you complaining earlier that you have to get too close?


As i mentioned, the distance shown in AluminiumHaste's videos is about the most far you can get away without blakjacking the air, so, why would you be as far away as that, when you want to safely do a knockout, which is the point here?

You don't have to aim for the back if you're further back, and you don't have to get so close if you're further back.  It's like you're intentionally making it more difficult and then complaining that it's too difficult.

No, not at all. As i mentioned, the point is to learn to safely blackjack someone. Obviously, it is not forgiving enough, because it is much, MUCH harder to safely blackjack someone than in the original Thief's. Actually, even after 40 played missions, i didn't learn. Must be because i suck so hard that i never had an issue with blackjacking in the original Thief's.

#65 AluminumHaste

AluminumHaste

    Darkmod Contributor

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6205 posts

Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:31 PM

As long as you understand that this isn't Thief, and you adjust your expectations appropriately you'll learn.

If you just sit there trying Thief1/2 tactics over and over again getting annoyed when they fail, you won't have a good time.

 

This is a new skillset you have to learn, new tactics. Yes it's a first person sneaker, so Thief 1/2 skills can somewhat be transferred, but they aren't copied.

 

Also, as mentioned, blackjacking in the original thief games was ridiculously easy. All you had to do with an attacking guard was get him in shadow, get behind him and you could knock him out. So broken.

The distance and arc of blackjack is different than Thief 1/2/3, no ones disputing that.

If FenPhoenix can learn to properly blackjack, so can you, so can anybody.


  • GilGiy likes this

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#66 chakkman

chakkman

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1012 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 06:08 AM

As long as you understand that this isn't Thief, and you adjust your expectations appropriately you'll learn.
If you just sit there trying Thief1/2 tactics over and over again getting annoyed when they fail, you won't have a good time.

It's not so much about that, rather that i consider the blackjacking superior in the Thief's. As i mentioned elsewhere, i think that TDM is superior to the Thief's in many ways. The blackjacking, not so, in my opinion. And that's a shame, because i'm not a ghoster, but rather try to weed out the patrols. Another issue i ALWAYS had with many missions are the guard's patrol paths. It absolutely makes no sense that there are patrols, which have such a complex guard path, that there are 3 or 4 guards in the same room at the same time (which kind of defeats patrol paths, doesn't it? Why would there be 3 or 4 guards in one room, while anything else is left unguarded?). But, that's another story.

Edited by chakkman, 01 May 2018 - 06:09 AM.


#67 Destined

Destined

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1560 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 06:10 AM

I just checked and found that the hitbox for blackjacking has dimensions of 16 x 7x 13.5 units. Unfortunately, I could not determine the exact position, but if you draw it in DR, you can see that this box easily covers the complete back of the head, so at least the box size should not be the problem, when blackjacking.

 

I also checked my own difficulty setting and I have AI set on challenging in all regards. As I said, I usually have no problem approaching AI to a distance where I can savely blackjack them. Of course, this is only true for carpet and similar silent floors.

 

Regarding KO immunitiy, you can always change the settings for yourself by editing the AI def files. If anyone is interested, I can look up the respective spawnargs that would need to be changed. The same is true, of course, for other settings, like hitbox size etc.



#68 chakkman

chakkman

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1012 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 06:13 AM

Also, as mentioned, blackjacking in the original thief games was ridiculously easy. All you had to do with an attacking guard was get him in shadow, get behind him and you could knock him out. So broken.

Well, that's the thing. You try to fix something which in YOUR opinion is broken, but, considering the popularity of the original games, might not be broken at all. Sure, I'd fine tune it a bit, but, i wouldn't revolutionize it in the way it is done in TDM.

Anyway, i see where this is going, and how the (several) other threads on the topic were going, so, i'll leave it at that. Won't change, because is believed it is not worth changing. Understand. Shame for me, but, hey, that's how it is.

#69 Destined

Destined

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1560 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 06:18 AM

AS I just wrote before: You can always change things like that for yourself by tweaking some of the spawnargs yourself. Not everything needs to be changed for everyone (just look at the discussion about dousing oil lamps by frobbing them) and if you are unhappy with it, why not correct for yourself?



#70 chakkman

chakkman

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1012 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 06:23 AM

You assume that i have any idea what a spawnarg, or AI definition files are. Also, some input about the mod, and areas where it could be improved, or a discussion if other people think the same or not should also be fine, right?

#71 Anderson

Anderson

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1073 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 06:31 AM

I'm not sure it has to be changed either. 

 The problematic concerns more how fast they react to the failure. But that's a thing to get used to. 

 

Overall at the moment where things feel awkward in indeed is swordfighting, especially with Builders carrying hammers. They're really quick. Does anyone feel like combat could use a Mount & Blade like setting to adjust the speed of battles (animations)?


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#72 AluminumHaste

AluminumHaste

    Darkmod Contributor

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6205 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 07:24 AM

Won't change, because is believed it is not worth changing. Understand. Shame for me, but, hey, that's how it is.

 

Maybe you don't realize just how much discussion and work went into the current implementation, the years of work that went into it.

You've aired your criticisms of it, your opinion, and the vast majority of the community disagrees with you (I think this is the second serious thread about the issue).

I'm not sure why we're still talking about it though, you've been given help, pointers, video demonstrations on correct use of the blackjack, I'm not sure what else can be done to try and help you.

You seem stuck on "it was better in Thief because I found it easier", I can just picture you every time you fail a blackjack you say to yourself "that would have worked in Thief!".

 

Oh well, can't please everyone, though I think we've done a great job giving people what they were looking for, hence the popularity of this (niche) game.

 

On a lighter note, I wanted to see just how hard it would be to murder my way out of a mission.

 


  • Anderson likes this

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#73 Anderson

Anderson

    Advanced Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1073 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 07:34 AM

Most exploitative thing in Thief was strafe jumping like in Quake.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#74 AluminumHaste

AluminumHaste

    Darkmod Contributor

  • Development Role
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6205 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 07:59 AM

Most exploitative thing in Thief was strafe jumping like in Quake.

 

I remember hurting myself against a wall from strafe jumping so fast in Thief 1. But with newdark limiting physics, I can't get going as fast.


  • Anderson likes this

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#75 Abusimplea

Abusimplea

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 460 posts

Posted 01 May 2018 - 09:09 AM

And that's a shame, because i'm not a ghoster, but rather try to weed out the patrols.

That is exactly my playstyle too. And by now you know, that i find blackjacking to be rather easy in TDM. But i did not play original thiefs's for a long time. Can't remember, how easy it was back then.
Nothing against some blackjack hitbox size slider on the options page though. I too don't expect the regular player knowing how to mod core game mechanics.
 

Another issue i ALWAYS had with many missions are the guard's patrol paths. It absolutely makes no sense that there are patrols, which have such a complex guard path, that there are 3 or 4 guards in the same room at the same time (which kind of defeats patrol paths, doesn't it? Why would there be 3 or 4 guards in one room, while anything else is left unguarded?).

The guards are comparable to typical security staff today. They are mostly minimum wage workers. Most are sloppy and like to chat. The difference is that in TDM they have the license to kill and you have plenty of shadows to hide in. Also the patrol system is not that advanced. A lot of the mappers try to reduce predictability of patrols to make guards harder to avoid. The pathing system supports this by having weighted nodes of wich one is randomly choosen each time teh guards arrives at another node. If you have multiple guards with patrols including one room, it is unavaidable that the situation will occur that all of them are in the room at the same time. It is avoidable by designing the location with patrols in mind. But most of the time, the owner of the place would not have done it and sloppy patrols and guards playing cards are nice game elements in itself...
 

Overall at the moment where things feel awkward in indeed is swordfighting, especially with Builders carrying hammers. They're really quick. Does anyone feel like combat could use a Mount & Blade like setting to adjust the speed of battles (animations)?

For me, combat in TDM serves to enable me to reload myself instead of beeing forced to by a failure screen.

It's not hack'n slash game. Combat should be hard even for experienced players and might or might not be awkward to do. And of course you never should be forced to do it.

So combat is fine as it is now. Might even make it a bit harder because AluminumHaste showed us, that you can defeat tens of guards with good timing. And you definitely should not be able to do that in a first person sneaker.


  • Anderson likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users