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More usages of holy water

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#1 SilentKlD

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 02:51 PM

Good day Darkmod team,

I have been playing Thomas Porter series, and I did enjoy those. Currently on the Transaction episode. The battle with the lich took me off guard for sure, but I liked the decision to look outside player's comfort zone. However, I was totally unprepared for the battle, since I used all my water arrows to douse crucial light sources and free the girl; as such I had HW, but could not use it properly.

 

As such, it sparked couple ideas in my head.

 

1) Ability to apply holy water on the sword, like applying poison on daggers type of scenarios, to make melee fight vs undead more effective; same consept as applying HW on water arrows.

2) Make HW as a throwable flask, like in TDS, turns into a puddle of water deadly for undead.

 

I'm not talking about next releases, but is any of it worthy to consider?



#2 grayman

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 03:01 PM

As for #1, I'm working on a mission that depends on the inability to apply HW to swords and daggers. Changing TDM to allow it would mess up this mission, and I would need to rethink what's going on and rescript a conversation that starts the mission.

 

Also, allowing this might break some existing map in some way that's not obvious.

 

#2 might be more feasible, because it adds to the player's weapons, instead of changing the behavior of existing weapons.



#3 wesp5

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 03:17 PM

#2 might be more feasible, because it adds to the player's weapons, instead of changing the behavior of existing weapons.

Destined and myself discussed this recently and he wrote the problem would be that "use" on holy water applies it to water arrows and you can't define another "use" for it. Or can be checked that all water arrows are gone and then "use" would throw the holy water as a last resort? Also I don't like the time limit on the current operation. It would be more logical that one holy water would turn x arrows into holy arrows, regardless of the time. Could this be done easily? I often waste some because the enemy does not appear before the time is up.


Edited by wesp5, 05 May 2018 - 03:19 PM.


#4 SilentKlD

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 03:20 PM

wesp5,

What if we make HW as throwable on default (Use key), and some other key binding on applying 1 unit of HW on arrows (something like Alternate use action, could be applied to other items in the future (e.g., drop flashbomb as action and arc throw flash bomb as alternate action), so it's not exclusively on water arrows and HW)?


Edited by SilentKlD, 05 May 2018 - 03:24 PM.


#5 Destined

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 03:30 PM

Hm, this suggestion reminds me of the flashbomb behaviour in general: hitting RMB (or whichever key you defined for use) will let you simply drop it, holding RMB will throw the flash bomb. Maybe this could be used on holy water as well: hitting RMB will apply it to the water arrows, while holding RMB will let you throw it.



#6 Springheel

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 06:29 PM

Are there any other tools that can be used in two different ways?  I can't think of any off-hand. 

 

The only thing I can think of that would fit with our current control scheme would be to allow the player to drop the holy water into their hand, and then allowing them to drop/throw it like any other junk object, but when it hits something it drops a puddle of holy water at that spot.  That would be similar to the way you can drop your spyglass into your hand and toss it away to distract a guard.


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#7 SilentKlD

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 07:54 PM

Springheel,

I think, all non-arrow and non-potions tools can be used like this:

 

Drop - Arc throw: flashbombs, mines.

Throw - apply: Holly water.

 

I don't think we need alternate action for every tool at our disposal.



#8 Epifire

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Posted 05 May 2018 - 11:18 PM

I'd dig option #2 and the whole TDS style Holy Water.


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#9 SilentKlD

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 12:17 AM

Epifire,

Why not take the best from the both games, arrows + HW and as throwable flasks? As is, HW is useless item if ran out of water arrows, sparks options for multiple usages.



#10 wesp5

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 03:24 AM

Springheel,

I think, all non-arrow and non-potions tools can be used like this:

In that case that would be my preferred solution, TDM does not need another key! It already has a "frob" and a "use" key where most games have only one of these. BTW, a stupid idea just occured to me ;): What if you could throw your health potion too and moss would grow on the floor where it breaks?



#11 Obsttorte

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 05:49 AM

All missions using holy water were designed with the current behaviour in mind. So I think changing that isn't the best way to go, as it potentially introduces issues with those missions (at least in regards to balance), displeases the authors of those missions and doesn't add much in regards to gameplay.

 

If any mission author thinks that a different behaviour for this or any other tool is desireable or would add to his mission, then he is free to alter the respective tool for his mission. Not every "good" idea needs to make it to the core mod.

 

Just my two cents. :)


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#12 wesp5

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 06:42 AM

All missions using holy water were designed with the current behaviour in mind. So I think changing that isn't the best way to go, as it potentially introduces issues with those missions (at least in regards to balance), displeases the authors of those missions and doesn't add much in regards to gameplay.

I don't think this is true. The new mechanic will be the same as using a holy water arrow only it still works when you wasted all your water arrows! No author can predict how many water arrows a player will spend and design his mission with that in mind...



#13 Springheel

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 07:53 AM

Springheel,

I think, all non-arrow and non-potions tools can be used like this:

 

Drop - Arc throw: flashbombs, mines.

Throw - apply: Holly water.

 

I don't think we need alternate action for every tool at our disposal.

 

I don't know what you mean by "throw".  We don't have a throw key.  Throwing is only achieved by holding the "drop" key. 


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#14 SilentKlD

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 02:49 PM

Springheel,

I meant like Action and Alternate action.

 

Action (tap Use)

-Drop flash bomb, mine underneath you

-Apply HW flask on water arrows

 

Alternate action (Hold use)

-Arc throw of flash bomb, mine, HW flask



#15 Obsttorte

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 03:36 PM

I don't think this is true. The new mechanic will be the same as using a holy water arrow only it still works when you wasted all your water arrows! No author can predict how many water arrows a player will spend and design his mission with that in mind...

The author knew that the player needs water arrows in addition to holy water to actually make use of the latter. So I am pretty sure they have thought of that (or at least they should have). Of course one cannot predict the exact number of arrows at each stage of a mission, but your argument almost implies that it is not planable at all.

 

In addition I may stress that I never said that a different mechanic would be bad per se, I just think it doesn't make much sense to change it after it got used in so many mission. An alternative approach would be to create a new playertool, with a slightly different name and inventory icon for differentiation. This way mappers can choose which kind they would like to have.


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#16 Springheel

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 03:37 PM

 

Action (tap Use)

-Drop flash bomb, mine underneath you

-Apply HW flask on water arrows

 

Alternate action (Hold use)

-Arc throw of flash bomb, mine, HW flask

 

 

Those aren't different actions though.  The drop key just builds up impulse.  Tap it and it drops straight down with no impulse behind it.  Hold it down a bit longer and it builds up a small impulse.  Hold it down even longer and it builds up a lot of impulse.

 

Having totally different behaviour depending on whether you hold the key or tap it would completely change the way that control scheme works.


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#17 wesp5

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 04:01 PM

Having totally different behaviour depending on whether you hold the key or tap it would completely change the way that control scheme works.

I didn't know about this at all! Can we add that info to the loading tips? But are there any other items that are used on other items? If there are not, it would still make sense as a last resort kind of way. Like if you don't have water arrows, the holy water flask turns into a normal item that can be thrown or dropped with the control scheme you described...


Edited by wesp5, 06 May 2018 - 04:04 PM.


#18 Destined

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 04:07 PM

Those aren't different actions though.  The drop key just builds up impulse.  Tap it and it drops straight down with no impulse behind it.  Hold it down a bit longer and it builds up a small impulse.  Hold it down even longer and it builds up a lot of impulse.

Sorry, I misinterpreted the function. Makes sense, that this is actually the same, but only determining the impulse by the time the button is held.



#19 Springheel

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 06:57 PM

I oversimplified it a bit.

 

1. For objects in the grabber (held out in front of player), "drop" works the way I described.  It generates an impulse based on how long it is pressed before propelling the object away from the player.

 

2. For inventory objects, "drop" actually moves the object from the inventory to the grabber, where it is no longer 'active'.  Putting a flashbomb or mine into the grabber and then hitting "drop" will just drop the object.  It will not be active.

 

3.  Hitting "use" will activate an inventory object.  For objects like mines and flashbombs, "use" also generates an impulse, allowing mines and flashbombs to be dropped or thrown.

 

 

I can't see any way to make holy water work as a bomb without changing that control scheme. 


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#20 SilentKlD

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 09:03 PM

Springheel,

I believe you got my idea correctly. I was thinking something along the following pseudologic:

 

if (usekey.OnTap())

   activate object (flashbombs, mines will drop under player, like in current implementation), HW will be applied to arrows(like in current implementation)

 

else if (usekey.OnHold())

   alternate activate object (flashbombs, mines will be thrown in arc), HW will be thrown in arc creating puddle of water.



#21 Springheel

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 09:13 PM

Springheel,

I believe you got my idea correctly. I was thinking something along the following pseudologic:

 

if (usekey.OnTap())

   activate object (flashbombs, mines will drop under player, like in current implementation), HW will be applied to arrows(like in current implementation)

 

else if (usekey.OnHold())

   alternate activate object (flashbombs, mines will be thrown in arc), HW will be thrown in arc creating puddle of water.

 

 

Right, but that would make holy water work differently than any other inventory item.  There are no other situations where holding down "use" results in a different activation effect. 

 

Also, I'm not really clear any more what the effect of throwing the holy water bottle is supposed to accomplish.  If it is just another way of turning the bottle into a projectile without having to spend a water arrow, why would anyone ever use a water arrow?


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#22 Destined

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 01:07 AM

Water arrows are far easier to aim than a thrown bottle, so I would always prefer them over any thrown object, but it is true that holy water could be used as a water arrow replacement (which may affect a couple older missions). However, the holy water is ususally given out very sparingly and I don't think that the impact on older missions would be that big. The water arrow alternative is also not the main goal here. The goal is to being able to use holy water even without water arrows, so it is not just dead weight without them. I myself use all my items very sparingly, but if you actually use the tools at your disposal, just to discover that you should have kept your water arrows for a zombie apocalypse and having to restart a level because of it, it is not really fun. If the old emchanism is kept, throwing should still only be a last resort, because you only get one shot from the bottle, while you get several shots out of one holy water if you use it on the water arrows. I would also not let it create pools, but only have it deal one hit with a holy stim. It is better than nothing, when you're out of water arrows, but not as strong as with them. Additionally, this would require less coding.



#23 wesp5

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 02:22 AM

If the old emchanism is kept, throwing should still only be a last resort, because you only get one shot from the bottle, while you get several shots out of one holy water if you use it on the water arrows. I would also not let it create pools, but only have it deal one hit with a holy stim. It is better than nothing, when you're out of water arrows, but not as strong as with them.

That is a wonderful summary on how I would like to have it! It should not replace the current mechanism, it should only add to it as a last resort if you are out of water arrows. As for this being different to other items, I think holy water is already different because it's the only item that changes other items and can't be used directly.


Edited by wesp5, 07 May 2018 - 02:23 AM.


#24 Springheel

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 09:00 AM

That is a wonderful summary on how I would like to have it! It should not replace the current mechanism, it should only add to it as a last resort if you are out of water arrows. As for this being different to other items, I think holy water is already different because it's the only item that changes other items and can't be used directly.

 

It may be different in what it does, but it's not different in its control scheme.  "Use" will activate whatever is in your inventory, causing it to do whatever it does.  Trying to add two entirely different kinds of 'activated behavior' is the problem here.

 

If we were rebuilding the game from scratch, I'd probably design it so that holy water acted like a mine--hitting "use" would drop/throw it, and if it came into contact with an undead (either by impact or by them walking through the puddle) it would cause damage.  Or, (I think my preferred approach) I'd design it so that hitting "use" coated whatever weapon you had selected (broadhead, water, sword), so that weapon became powerful against undead.  Neither of those bind it to water arrows.  

 

But, since we followed the T1 implementation, I don't see any problem-free way of changing it now.  


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#25 SilentKlD

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 10:52 PM

Destined, you got my point exactly; I did not want to replace existing system, just add another way of using HW.

From my personal experience, firing water arrows at the lich that detected you was extremely hard; I needed to up the distance and shoot before he hits and disrupts me.

While I did know about saving some arrows for undead, I didn't know what level had to offer me (like, if I could replenish water arrows in some pond). Also, I'm not a wasteful person, water and rope arrows pretty much my most used things, (and only if completely necessary); and others, depending on situation.

But because of my unawareness of needed battle with lich, I had to restart the level, while keeping in mind I only have 5 arrows for entire level; as such I rushed to the church to grab HW, and get to lich asap before I run out again.

While I appreciate Sotha's efforts to mix up something interesting, I don't think my kind of experience is what he was aiming for.






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