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Can we talk about where the player keeps all this loot and how she can stay so quiet?


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#1 Filizitas

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:59 AM

Alot of people asked this question in comments now and i kinda want to answer this question.

 

 

Where does the player keep all the loot?

 

Why is the player still so quiet and not heavier?

 

 

Can we start a discussion please.


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#2 esme

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 06:00 AM

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Magical bag of holding, can hold anything, never gets heavier :ph34r:


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#3 Destined

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 06:11 AM

Unfortunately, there is no better answer than this. It is a game design decision that the amount of loot does not affect the player. Otherwise, the mechanism would counteract one of the main aspects of the game (i.e. stealing stuff). In another thread (would have to look up which one) an author suggested to introduce drop points for loot, but this system would most likely cause a lot of unnecessary backtracking, which is bad for the flow of the game and diminish the fun of playing it.

One possibility I myself thought of would be a thick sack with straps that fixate the loot and prevents any clinking together, but thinking about the amount of loot tha player carries at times, he should at least be slowed down massively and sometimes even not be able to move at all. So, it is best to just accept it as a design choice and ignore this slight inaccuracy.


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#4 chakkman

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 06:16 AM

"She"? In most missions i played, it was a "he". ;)

 

Apart from that, i don't really think it's worth discussing that. Gameplay decision. Just like it's a gameplay decision that guards can distinguish between friendly and enemy footsteps. Or that you have magic, and undead monsters. And so on.



#5 Abusimplea

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 06:22 AM

Mrs. Garrett obviously stores all the stuff in her soundproofed handbag.

 

There is at least one bank heist mission where you have to carry the gold bars one for one to the drop point - and that was the sucking part of an otherwise good mission.

If you are not convinced: Try it yourself. Play any mission and backtrack to your spawn point after every tenth medium-sized object you steal.


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#6 Filizitas

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 06:36 AM

"She"? In most missions i played, it was a "he". ;)

 

Apart from that, i don't really think it's worth discussing that. Gameplay decision. Just like it's a gameplay decision that guards can distinguish between friendly and enemy footsteps. Or that you have magic, and undead monsters. And so on.

Yee but i am feminazi :D

 

Dont worry.


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#7 freyk

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 07:08 AM

If we would like to stay true to the Thief-serie,
please dont give the player any stamina-, weight or other limits like that.
But adding this as a option to difficulty settings, to make it more realistic, would be cool.

But then again,..
Spoiler

Edited by freyk, 18 June 2018 - 07:43 AM.


#8 New Horizon

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 07:42 AM

Not a fan of encumbrance in a game like this.  You're essentially punishing the player for doing the very thing we want them to do, collect all the loot.  It would also encourage killing the AI to avoid being caught.

 

It's a gameplay choice for those reasons, and probably more.  Once you start mucking around with that stuff, you're essentially making a different game.


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#9 Filizitas

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 07:43 AM

For my current project i thought of a magic holding bag.

 

Tho my world is magic driven and i will explain the bag.

 

I also thought of a survival element with the weight.

But that is not important right now-

 

I just feel like for immersion and the people asking questions later, its important.


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#10 wesp5

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 08:42 AM

Our Thief can carry all the stuff in the same way that any FPS game hero can carry about a dozend firearms which are not visible and will not slow him down :)!


Edited by wesp5, 18 June 2018 - 08:42 AM.

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#11 Bienie

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 08:44 AM

I actually have been toying with the idea of making a mission where the player is only able to carry a certain amount or weight of loot, which would force the player to think before they steal that brass wine glass worth 10 gold, versus the jewelry worth a lot more for it's weight. Problem is I'm not really knowledgeable enough to figure out how to make that work, and fine tune code and such, but I think it would be a really cool mechanic.


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#12 Bienie

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 08:49 AM

Our Thief can carry all the stuff in the same way that any FPS game hero can carry about a dozend firearms which are not visible and will not slow him down :)!

 

Exactly, though it is fast becoming a trend now that FPS games limit your ability to carry loads weapons and other gear, and those games are getting very popular. It might be something to consider to "bring TDM forward". Though the counter argument of keeping the old school style of the Thief games intact is also a valid point.


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#13 freyk

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 08:53 AM

Our Thief can carry all the stuff in the same way that any FPS game hero can carry about a dozend firearms which are not visible and will not slow him down :)!

Yes, like cutter slade's backpack 2000, from game "Outcast".
I want one of those in real life,.. ^_^

(Video in de spoiler)

Spoiler


Edited by freyk, 18 June 2018 - 08:56 AM.

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#14 demagogue

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 08:56 AM

Definitely bag of holding. :laugh:

 

There is a cost with having lots of stuff though. It's that you have to scroll through a bunch of junk (or sift through a bunch of it on the grid) to get what you need. I think that's good enough for our purposes. While we have a few RPG-like ideas here and there, we're not an RPG.


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#15 Sotha

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:00 AM

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I guess the issue is actually mappers fault.

Loot should be rare.

If the mission had rare and low total loot amount, such as: 4 rings, 100-200 gold coins, necklace or two, and the main prize/target (a painting, a vase, The Golden Skull, the Recipe, or whatever), the loot system would have no immersion issues whatsoever. The player collects a few small trinkets along with the main target.

We mappers happily sprinkle too much loot in our missions. I think this is the main finding of this discussion. And a *valuable* finding indeed (insert loot collection sound effect).
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#16 Filizitas

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:02 AM

Yes thank you all!!!
 

I am trying to create some sort of advanced thief, i feel like garret always was clunky and rogue like...
I am creating some sort of agent player, where you have tactical gear and you are overall not on the same level as your oponents.

Splinter cell with stealing and no killing basicly.

 

And i am trying to give the loot more meaning, also the gameplay.

 

@sotha i like your post the most, it gives me an idea.

Thief had this % system for loot, maybe i can abuse this.

Like: Normal loot quality and percentage

Special loot percentage.

 

Maybe i can give the player something for loot, like charms in hollow knight where you get buffs.


Edited by Filizitas, 18 June 2018 - 09:06 AM.

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#17 nbohr1more

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:05 AM

The more I think about this, the more I "like" the idea of collecting loot > depositing in some safe location > back-tracking to gather more > depositing (etc)

I think that would be a fun mechanic if done right. I'm not sold on it as a core mechanic for TDM but I'd love to play a mission like that.


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#18 Filizitas

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:06 AM

What if we had a dimension where all the loot is stored?

 

Google fable for that. Didnt worked well, and you could easily escape enemies here.


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#19 duzenko

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:33 AM

I second Sotha on the too much loot notion, as much as too many guards. Sometimes it's like a fortress besieged, with a platoon of soldiers waiting for an imminent attack. Nice setting for an FPS, not so much for a kleptomaniac.

Especially in missions where player needs to reach an important objective (think Leech Queen) it does not make sense to drool at every copper coin.


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#20 chakkman

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:35 AM

I guess the issue is actually mappers fault.

Loot should be rare.

If the mission had rare and low total loot amount, such as: 4 rings, 100-200 gold coins, necklace or two, and the main prize/target (a painting, a vase, The Golden Skull, the Recipe, or whatever), the loot system would have no immersion issues whatsoever. The player collects a few small trinkets along with the main target.

 

I also think that 4000-5000 gold loot in some missions is pretty excessive. I mean, the Thief protagonist could happily spent his life retiring, after 3 or 4 of such jobs. ;)


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#21 Destined

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 09:39 AM

I actually have been toying with the idea of making a mission where the player is only able to carry a certain amount or weight of loot, which would force the player to think before they steal that brass wine glass worth 10 gold, versus the jewelry worth a lot more for it's weight. Problem is I'm not really knowledgeable enough to figure out how to make that work, and fine tune code and such, but I think it would be a really cool mechanic.

In this case, I would modify the current system and add loot not to the current "loot slot" in the inventory, but rather a temporary slot. With some scripting (I am not sure how much though), you could sum up the mass of the loot (they all have a "weight" spawnarg, so this should be possible) and reduce the player movement by a percentage proportional to carried loot. If the loot is dropped into some kind of deposit it gets moved to the regular "loot slot", so it can be used as usual for buying new stuff and does not have any weight anymore.

 

 

Splinter cell with stealing and no killing basicly.

Splinter Cell (at least the first installments) was never about killing. In the first part, you got penalties (or at least fewer points) if you got caught or interacted with AI in any way (be it being spotted, KOing or killing). Stealing, on the other hand, was never part of it.

 

I also second that loot should be rather sparse. I remember levels, where there was a whole shelf of golden plates, with which a thief could pay his rent for another year (minimum). Why not use porcelain plates that are also more noble than wooden ones, but still won't fetch such a hefty price.



#22 Springheel

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 12:20 PM

It's not quite so easy to balance a realistic amount of loot with the desire to reward players for doing things we'd like them to do in the game.  There are a limited number of ways to reward players for exploring map areas (assuming that exploring is not its own reward, which may be true for some players):  flavour text, mission clues, loot, inventory objects, ammunition, in something like that order of importance.  The larger the map, the more things you need.


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#23 demagogue

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 03:27 PM

There's an interactive fiction, Guild of Thieves, where you're a thief and have limited space in your bag, so you have to take trips in and out of places to loot them and stash the loot somewhere. I started a map to recreate it. It naturally fits our gameplay most excellently. But I start a lot of maps...
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#24 stumpy

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:06 PM

the thief has a terrible gambling habit, betting on the outsiders at the belcher races, and has lots of debts to pay, plus protection money to the local guards not to raid his house while he's out robbing theirs, so he's usually broke by the end of the week, or day, if its a really bad day at the races.


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#25 chakkman

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 05:26 PM

I always thought he had quite a expensive life style as well. ;)






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