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Things we can do to make TDM more like every other stealth game

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#1 V-Man339

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 01:22 AM

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Hey guys I figure we should make The Dark Mod more accessible for general audiences and make our game less unique so I figured some helpful pointers would help you guys out!

  • Slow motion powers that use up a meter that only builds by stealing loot.
  • Highly graphic (also probably slow motion) x-ray kills and knockouts. (See attached image)
  • A fully semi-automatic crossbow or something with clip reloaded ammunition. (Chu-ko-nu comes to mind)
  • Mark and execute on above crossbow and possibly also the bow and arrows.
  • Ledge grab kills & kills from above.
  • The ability to knock out guards by throwing bottles at their head.
  • Third person camera for overpowered situational awareness levels.
  • Snap-to-cover system.
  • A radar complete with enemy vision cones.
  • X-ray vision that highlights loot/intractable objects.
  • A tacked on PVP mode that nobody plays and never gets properly developed but has like one or two good ideas in it.

I really hope this thread helps you guys improve a good game into a great one!

 

Spoiler

 


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#2 Petike the Taffer

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:39 AM

It's early autumn. April Fool's is still far, far away.

 

You forgot "kill-streaks", or whatever inanity the CoD generation and zombie-obliterating keyboard warriors are drooling over these days...

 

That said, I wouldn't mind an optional fan addon for changing the bow kit into a crossbow kit, if someone would like to vary the missions up a bit. A single-shot crossbow, please, lots of lovely historical types to choose from (that, and repeating ones are actually not that great). Same with an addon with one or two other short sword types. Maybe a falchion or a messer, both would still fit a thief character.

 

The rest ? Hell naw. Even as a joke, it's just pointless clutter.


Edited by Petike the Taffer, 12 October 2018 - 02:42 AM.

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#3 V-Man339

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:34 AM

You forgot "kill-streaks", or whatever inanity the CoD generation and zombie-obliterating keyboard warriors are drooling over these days...

 

"CoD generation" is actually outdated at this point, most kids now are in the "Fortnite" generation so you'd be referring to a Battle Royale mode.


I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.
Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.


#4 chakkman

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:48 AM

This thread is a joke and I really want you all to understand that because I am a firm believer in Poe's law.

 

Thank god. :)

 

Although the "Ledge grab kills & kills from above." don't seem like a bad idea. 


Edited by chakkman, 12 October 2018 - 03:49 AM.


#5 V-Man339

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 04:28 AM

 

Thank god. :)

 

Although the "Ledge grab kills & kills from above." don't seem like a bad idea. 

Don't do this to me.

Spoiler


I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.
Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.


#6 chakkman

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 05:37 AM

Hehe. I must admit i quite like this in Splinter Cell (not Conviction, rather the older ones):

 

 

Most of the things you listed in the OP are present in the new Deus Ex games. And, i must say that i don't have an issue with most. If, or whether those belong in a Thief game, is another question. I'd agree that they don't, maybe with a few exceptions. As i wrote, grabbing from ledges might be quite a fun idea. That necessarily means, though, that you go the lethal way, of course. And, with all those missions with "Don't kill anyone" objectives in the highest difficulty, it might be completely obsolete.



#7 wesp5

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 07:28 AM

 

"CoD generation" is actually outdated at this point, most kids now are in the "Fortnite" generation so you'd be referring to a Battle Royale mode.

I think TDM already includes one. At least if it's possible I'm always the last man standing on any map when I am finished :)!



#8 esme

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 07:39 AM

Spoiler


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#9 Judith

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 07:48 AM

A radar complete with enemy vision cones.

 

Hey, that made sense with MGS series, back when it was almost always a top-down view with limited range. But, what I'd like to see in TDM is improved step sounds. In Thief both AI and player steps were quite loud, and that was a good thing IMO. Also, I noticed that different surfaces have sounds that have been normalized to a different level, i.e. walking on wood actually sounds louder than walking on stone. I'd want to investigate this while working on sound for my mission, so probably in a few months ;)


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#10 Skaruts

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 08:44 AM

DoF blur, motion blur, HDR, eye adaptation, and lens flare (even if the character doesn't wear glasses or helmets). They're a must, because they all make so much sense in a game. 



#11 esme

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 08:46 AM

One possible improvement might be a cut down AI for use in crowds, so you could have a large crowd scene without a huge AI overhead, even perhaps treating the entire crowd as a single AI - mobs tend to react as a single creature, they also have swarming & following behaviours like flocks of birds

 

Essentially they'd be blind and deaf to most things and follow each other round performing simple actions, unless they become alerted by some trigger event, at which point they'd head for their nearest flee point or just away from the event that triggered them, maybe even jamming up exits in the process just like real crowds, they would get in the way but they would also provide cover, a few could even revert to full AI when they alert and attack the protagonist, or even the other AI -  bar fight scenario

 

Fleeing AI would need some behaviour once they reach their flee point, maybe enter a building not accessible to the player & despawn or gradually calm down and return to what they were doing, or even just mill about where they are

 

One large crowd could be comprised of several individual mobs so the whole appears to exhibit complex behaviour while it's actually several simple behaviours from each mob interfering in an emergent way, for example a market with a shopping script where the AI visit a list of stalls randomly providing they aren't already in use - one customer at a time, and different mobs have different lists of stalls so as they navigate & get in each others way it appears complex, or pubs where mobs visit the bar and tables, again with slightly different lists of locations to visit and actions to perform, formal dances, have two AI link together & pirouette around, they'd need to split when alerted though which might be tricky

 

If the protagonist is moving through this crowd maybe switch the AI within a certain radius of them to being full AI so they can react better then as they drop out of range they rejoin the mob, if they become alerted while full AI they alert the mob they belong to & flee, so if you pick someone's pocket and the AI behind you sees you, their mob reacts to the cries of "stop thief" & this cascades through the rest of the crowd triggering fight or flight

 

Key AI such as guards, watchmen or any designated target would always be full AI & never part of mob

 

Just a thought, I know it'd be a huge amount of work for possibly little benefit as I realise most thievery takes place at night when there are few people about, but I do like the idea of being able to hide in a crowd and going about in daylight


Edited by esme, 12 October 2018 - 08:52 AM.


#12 STiFU

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 10:16 AM

HDR, eye adaptation

We have eye adaption and at least HDR-like shading.

 

  • Ledge grab kills & kills from above.
  • The ability to knock out guards by throwing bottles at their head.

I get that you just want to be funny, but what's wrong with kills from above or ledge kills / knockouts? Both features have been discussed and deemed nice-to-have but low-priority. It's just another sneaky option to get rid of enemies.

 

Also, I think we are already able to knock out guards with heavy equipment, are we not?



#13 Petike the Taffer

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 10:49 AM

Technically, we already have ledge knockouts... You lean over a ledge and drop a crate on a guard's head. Insta-knockout ! :P :D


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#14 chakkman

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 10:53 AM

But... that's not how it's supposed to be done. :P



#15 Judith

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 10:55 AM

Emergent gameplay! :D



#16 V-Man339

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 01:54 PM

Emergent gameplay! :D

Procedural generated rogue-like missions.


I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.
Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.


#17 stumpy

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:26 PM

we also need some cupboards for the thief to hide in to do an autosave and hide from guards, guards should completely lose track of the thief while the thief is in the cupboard,

 

so easy to do just put monsterclip around some metal cabinet with doors that open outwards, and big enough for the thief to stand up in, and removed the handling option from the doors so ai can't open them.


Edited by stumpy, 12 October 2018 - 03:28 PM.


#18 Abusimplea

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 04:22 PM

This thread is a joke and I really want you all to understand that because I am a firm believer in Poe's law.

You might be joking, but i would like to have the following in the game:
 
- Ledge grab kills & kills from above. Please also add a knockout option.
 
- The ability to knock out guards by throwing bottles at their head. I know, that it already is possible with crates. But i never found the opportunity to do so, because crates are heavy and therefore have to be dropped from above. Most missions' geometry makes that way less easy than just knocking out the guards with your trusty blackjack. Throwing bottles or even shooting blunt arrows would introduce some variety.
 
We already have snap-to-cover though - at least in my playthroughs, the avatar always is behind cover when needed. ;)
 

We already have very limited blackjacking and sword usage for a reason, and arrow usage from either angle is just fine as is since it requires the use of at least one form of ammo/resource.

Did you know, that you can recollect spent arrows as long as you have hit the soft stuff off an AI?
Also, if you kill an archer, it becomes dead-easy to get the single lootable arrow, he carries in his quiver.
So kill-alls with no startup equipment except picks and a single broadead are relatively easy to pull off in most missions not containing undead or elite guards.
But i prefer nonlethal playthroughs. So if i use broadheads at all, i mostly waste them on distraction and non-reachable guards. They are also cheaper than water arrows for dousing candles.
 

Procedural generated rogue-like missions.

Would be great too. And as i replay most TDM missions every few years, i would definitely profit from having a new map on every playthrough.

Would a (partially) procedurally generated mission possible to make in current TDM? Can we move around AASed and visportaled geometry by script?

 



#19 V-Man339

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 09:29 PM

Thanks for proving Poe's Law correct.

 

I'm not ashamed to admit I learned things from this thread about how crates can be used.

149Zps6.jpg


I like to record difficult stealth games, and right now you wonderful people are the only ones delivering on that front.
Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.


#20 Destined

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 04:25 AM

Ledge kills/KOs would still require some tweaking as we cannot "hang" on a ledge right now. The player always pulls himself up the ledge after grabbing it. It is not possible to hold on to a ledge and move along it (although this would be a nice feature regarding moveability of the player).



#21 Judith

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 04:42 AM

 

It is not possible to hold on to a ledge and move along it (although this would be a nice feature regarding moveability of the player).

 

You can use ladder brush to "glue" player to anything you want. You'd just have to make it systemic and teach player how to use it. You can even include the ladder material in your models (as a hull), so you don't have to place it in DR manually. It would be a bit "make-believe" without any arms animation, but it will work. By the way, why ladder brushes have some kind of angle limitation? It would be awesome if you could use it to climb the ceiling and see the room upside-down below you :)



#22 demagogue

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 04:42 AM

XD

 

 

My smile kept getting bigger as I read that list and we fell down the rabbit hole of absurdity...


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#23 Skaruts

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 08:23 AM

Would a (partially) procedurally generated mission possible to make in current TDM? Can we move around AASed and visportaled geometry by script?

I'd love to know more about this.



#24 kingsal

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 12:29 PM

Objective markers of course! Wouldn't want players getting lost in all those new fancy graphics and UI features.


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#25 wesp5

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 02:20 PM

Were only a few fixed auto save points instead of free saving already mentioned? Of course they need to be at the beginning of important cutscenes so you have to watch them over and over if you failed! And none near really critical portions of the game...


Edited by wesp5, 13 October 2018 - 02:20 PM.

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