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Copypasting vs. GPL/CC 3.0 reuse or adapt your thoughts

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#1 peter_spy

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 04:46 AM

There was a recent controversy, and a heated exchange in the betatesting forum, which might have gone largely unnoticed, and I think the topic itself is pretty important for the community. The whole thing starts here: http://forums.thedar...-beta/?p=430318
 
In essence, mapper copypasted portions of his previous map into a new one, along with portions of work by another mapper, with changes ranging from slight/cosmetic to none. Two examples:

 

Clipboard01.jpg Clipboard02.jpg

 

Since I was the only one speaking up in that thread, I'd like to hear our mapper community stance on such practices. First, does this even constitute reuse, remix, or adaptation? It looks more like a collection in CC definition. And, is there a way to protect your work under GPL/CC from such practices? (paging Demagogue...)

 

Second, I'd just like to hear your personal opinion on this.

 

To me, this is serious, quite dangerous precedent. It's not using abandoned work with sb else's blessing. It's also not an homage, as there's little creativity being shown here. This is copypasting and slightly tweaking sb else's work to speed up your mapping process. To me, it's self-degrading and admitting creative failure. Doing it with sections of your own map might just be poor taste and your personal matter, but doing it with someone else's work? That's whole another level. Do we have to start protecting .map files somehow, or have some kind of community guidelines in place on this?


Edited by Judith, 30 November 2018 - 04:50 AM.


#2 teh_saccade

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 07:13 AM

TL;DR:

How many times have you seen a door in an FM? They're all pretty much the same door.

My personal opinion on using any part of someone's level design is that it's a matter of being respectful of the other person, therefore asking permission and giving credit if it is granted.

I'd never copy someone's architecture or level design geometry, because that's lazy and boring.

If I'd like to use some script I don't understand - I'll message the person and ask permission to use it, and perhaps an explanation as to how it works so I can not simply copy it but tune it to my needs.
Usually I'll post in newbie's help and hail mary for an answer that is rarely received, because no-one knows what the fuck I'm talking or they're busy doing their own stuff - so why care about my stuff?

Maybe Stumpy or Obs will have a lead. But otherwise - this shit is difficult to figure out sometimes, so I'll download greebo's starter kit and fidcal's pre-made briefing and hack that up so it's the right shape and fits into my FM that I'd like to play and give myself difficulties and experiement and learn.

If it's abandoned, then it's left there for people to do this.

If it's a WiP, then it's a leak and - unless it's a studio such as FUbisoft, that deserve it because some dick in middle management was a dick and the company backed them - if it was my design, I'd be pissed, but the gate's open and the horse is out and there's no closing Pandora's box.

If that's the case - it being a steal and a breach of trust - then it's no place for anyone to go sticking their nose and it's beef between the person who took it and the person who made it only, no-one else's - so there's no need to get upset about it, as it's not my problem - it's theirs. Or for community leaders to decide if they will allow the FM to be listed, even though they know it's the same as blah.

Regarding TDM FMs, because there's no way to say, "oi - that's mine - you can't do that", there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. Just gotta suck it up and learn to not go public so soon next time.

Spoiler


Hopefully this epistle will have bored the shit out of any further commentary on this issue, because:

a) there's nothing anyone can do about it, except say, "no we're not publishing that FM because you stole from this person".

but

2) That would be hypocritical because it goes against what the license says

and - in some cases

x) It doesn't matter because it's abandoned.


Edited by teh_saccade, 30 November 2018 - 07:40 AM.


#3 teh_saccade

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 07:29 AM

I instantly recognise the images and I know those missions well - if I was playing that new one, I'd think that it was a remake or improvement by the original authour.

I probably wouldn't notice that it was the same thing from two different missions, packaged by a different authour as a "new" one, unless someone pointed it out...

There are a lot of stale FMs that are very similar.

Tbh, the originals look better, except for the arched gate with the extra lighting to give the impression of a populated building.
It just looks like a tweak from the original - the house over the arch is more aesthetically pleasing, but it's the same place.

(actually, the geometry of the building makes me think that the architect was high, because that's messed up... wtf is up with that 45 degree bolt-on room at the top..? It looks weird, even though using the newer assets and fleshing out the scene make it a little more attractive - it's probably all fur coat and no knickers)

Since you said it comes from WiP thread - unless "Cleaning Up" is by the same authour, or that authour has given permission, it's legitimate plagurism that only shows the offending mapper couldn't be bothered to come up with their own ideas or put in the work to create a section that's similar.

Idk why it's a big deal - people will notice and that person will lose internet cookies. The end.

If anything - it'd be nice to hand those sections back to the original FM authours as "hey what do you think of the improvements I've made?".


This is what you get when you promote modular design and prefabs.


Edited by teh_saccade, 30 November 2018 - 07:39 AM.


#4 teh_saccade

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 08:11 AM

Heh, their name in 1337 is "some, I stole it..."

Also, the FM appears to have been made by Bikerdude - they've put more time into it than the mapper, looking at that thread.

There's no response from the mapper. the issue raised here is ignored - it's all talk between others. "Some, I stole it", displays a trend of wanting to copy things from the get-go - this is how people learn.


It appears there are only a few sections that have been copied, but - for the rest of the map - is that a Barbie doll house / copy of something else, too?

To summarise everything - this raises more a discussion on allowing people to learn how to operate on humans by performing surgery on 2nd hand pigs and learn to tattoo humans by practising on pig-skin, and also whether or not to add a layer of encryption to pk4's so as to prevent a slew of copy-cat copy-cats with manga cat ears copy-catting copy-cats.


This looks like a case of sanctioned plagiurism of someone else's work, without any request or granted permission to do so.

Therefore, it's up to the bosses to decide if they are going to allow the same levels, updated with new assets - or if FM's such as this are to be treated as training exercises for less experienced mappers who want to rush ahead and get cookies.

Reading the thread - people have been aware that it has contained sections that are facsimilie copies from other missions for some time, yet have allowed it.

The question is - will these same people continue to allow it to be pubished, knowing that it is like this - setting a precedent that it's ok to copy other mapper's brushwork and just slap a new coat of paint on it, while doing all the technical stuff that the rest of us have to figure out ourselves..?


Why does no one hold my hand through the entire process and do all the work for me, when I have issues?

Is it because I don't look like a girl and have manga cat ears and write long posts..?

I'll be boycotting playing this mission for a number of reasons and am considering making a new account, pretending to be a girl and using a manga character as an avatar - because then I might get someone helping me and doing all the hard work, while I just build a doll's house and make it look pretty.


Again - this is what you get when you promote modular design and prefabs.



#5 peter_spy

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 08:19 AM

I'd be really happy if you could just once have a concise and coherent thought to spell out, without barfing the whole stream of your consciousness, and everything you know about a given topic. ;)

 

You have at least a few fair points there though, I hope others won't get discouraged by these walls of texts and have their say too.

 

Also, if what I've learned is correct, Some1stoleit is not only new to mapping in TDM, he/she is new to game mapping in general. So Biker taking over the map might be something completely new and hard to oppose for such person, and their situation isn't exactly "you knew what you've signed up for".


Edited by Judith, 30 November 2018 - 08:26 AM.


#6 grayman

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:16 AM

For me, this is a discussion between the two contributors: the original mapper and the mapper using the original mapper's work.

 

There's no need for third parties to become involved.

 

If the original mapper discovers (assuming no prior permission request) an object's re-use (whether it's a new texture or a new model of a new map section), the originator and the user can work out some agreement:

 

1 - don't use it (perhaps it's unique to the original map and the author wishes it to stay that way)

2 - feel free to use it, but don't alter it

3 - feel free to use it, and alter it any way you wish

 

This can be done via PM, and anyone during a beta test who points out similarities between the WIP and existing maps can be told right away what the two authors agreed to. End of discussion.


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#7 teh_saccade

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:27 AM

Official sanction - precedent set - rules established.

It's ok to steal other people's work, so long as they don't find out about it.

If they do, argue about it in private.


I have to disagree, Grayman, and say that this is an not an issue between mappers, but one of integrity in the community.


How about - instead of allowing these situations to happen, an FM authour states in the readme that it's ok to copy anything or puts some limitations on use, nipping the problem in the bud instead of ignoring it and letting the dogs fight over a bone?

Then this will never happen again.

 

; if there's nothing in the readme - it's open season (it could even be a stipulation of the FM's release - the authour choose 1, 2 or 3 and that determines level of encryption).


Edited by teh_saccade, 30 November 2018 - 10:31 AM.


#8 peter_spy

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 11:44 AM

Thanks for the input Grayman, it would be great to see more TDM team members speaking their minds about this.



#9 Springheel

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:05 PM

There are a lot of times where copying and pasting entire sections of someone else's mission might be acceptable:

1. You want to re-use an existing game-world location (like the Braeden City Hall) and you get the original mapper's permission.
2. You are a new mapper who doesn't know how to make things on their own, and you get the original mapper's permission.
3. You are pressed for time, or looking for shortcuts for other reasons, and you get the original mapper's permission.
4. You make so many changes to the original section that no one would recognize it.

However, none of those apply in this case.

 

This is what you get when you promote modular design and prefabs.

 
This has nothing at all to do with modular design, or prefabs.  This is an obvious copy/paste of an entire section of an easily-recognized map, from a mapper with a long history of crossing boundaries with other people's work. 

 

As the mapper whose work was copy/pasted, I'm definitely not thrilled about it, especially when I made and shared dozens of prefab buildings specifically for mappers who wanted to speed up their workflow.  But what else is there to be said?  This keeps coming up over and over again, always surrounding the same person, and I've long ago stopped expecting anything to change.


 


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#10 Bikerdude

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 03:09 PM

In essence, mapper copypasted portions of his previous map into a new one, along with portions of work by another mapper, with changes ranging from slight/cosmetic to none. Two examples:

I was never my intention to blatantly copy Springheels layout, but to use parts of the map as templates. In the beta thread I made the mistake of posting WIP shots which were then viewed as final product, Springheel saw this and rightly commented it was a blatant copy. In hindsight had I been thinking straight, I should have just dropped Springheel a Pm asking if he minded my template intentions.

 

Then fast forward to a few days ago where Judith angerly pointed out the the issue in the beta, I then asked him three separate times to take screenshots of examples where I still had to make changes. He eventually did this but only after some prodding from another member, and thought that was the end of it.

 

Judith, I did try and PM you after your first post in the beta thread but as you blocked me I have no other choice but to discuss it in the beta thread and now here.


Edited by Bikerdude, 30 November 2018 - 03:10 PM.


#11 peter_spy

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 03:50 PM

I am not interested in your take on this, Biker. I'm interested in what other mappers and members of TDM team think.

 

Your actions speak louder than your words, and you've lost the benefit of doubt quite some time ago. In this particular situation, I reacted angrily, because I feel genuinely threatened by your shitty practices. In fact, you can easily extrapolate this, and apply it to every mapper who already published, or will publish a mission. If this behavior is tolerated in this community, it will mean that every mapper has to check whether you nicked some of their level design every time you publish a new mission. If that's not tremendously discouraging, then I don't know what is.

 

I want to contribute to this community, but I will have to restrict that to sharing my know-how, technical knowledge, and, in due time, models and asset packs. But I honestly don't want to work on a map under the circumstances.

 

Edit: and stop pretending that this is some kind of mild case, where you can find some middle ground or make some slight adjustments. There are no ways to correct this other than deleting the whole copypasted section and making this area from scratch.


Edited by Judith, 30 November 2018 - 04:33 PM.


#12 Bikerdude

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 06:15 PM

You made that clear when you posted increasingly confrontational posts in the beta thread and then started a new thread in the public forum. Why didn't you just PM me in the first instance, your first post in the beta thread was direct but civil but then rapidly went down hill after that.

 

I don't know how many different way or times I can explain what my intentions were, people other than me have tried to explain this also - but your refusing to listen. Repeatedly attacking me is counter productive, as is making grand sweeping hypothetical statements that have no basis in fact, both of which just undermines your viewpoint..

 

As I stated in the beta thread I asked you directly "please suggest locations as I have requested in the posts above" and before nborh1 repeated his request I had already spoken to Some1 so make him aware that where were several locations where I needed to change or recreate. I see you have continued to lump in the use of prefabs and locations I have created from scratch for other missions, beyond suggesting some changes - how is the use of my personally created resources relate to your argument?

 

Since you have taken this opportunity to voice your opinion about me, I shall do the same. No one will deny the models and rooms you have created are very impressive, but when you started in this community, you came across as blunt and opinionated. And now choosing to create drama rather than avoid it, helps no one. I will not deny I have caused a lot of avoidable drama on here, but I haven't had much interaction with you before this point! So I am failing to understand how you went from that, to personally attacking me. When you took the decision to start an inflammatory thread in the public forum, what did you genuinely think or want the outcome to be?



#13 peter_spy

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 06:47 PM

You are creating this drama Biker. Several people left either this forum, or TDM mapping entirely, because of you. That is not really my business, but what you're doing now is, as it affects all mappers. You're dodging questions and playing village idiot. You've played that card way too many times, so I'm not buying it.

 

I'm not buying that you wanted to use Springs portion of a map "as template", because you copypasted the whole section, got caught, and only made slight changes. In the beta thread, Some1stoleit said that this is probably the final iteration before the release. So you're constantly testing the waters, trying to see what you can get away with.

 

You are also dodging the basic question: why are you doing all this? This wasn't even your map, who the hell told you to do this? By pasting your and Spring's parts of the level into Some1stoleit's you are degrading it for no reason. It's his/her first release and first game mapping experience ever, and that's what you're teaching newcomers?

 

These are obvious things to everyone here, and in most mapping communities to be honest. But somehow not to you. Note that you are literally the only one person in this community who regularly causes this kind of backlash.



#14 peter_spy

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 07:04 PM

The thread isn't inflammatory. The evidence is there, I wanted to know what people think about such conduct. In many communities you would have been banned long ago, so here the situation is a bit different. If such behavior is generally accepted, I will have to adapt to the situation. I'm not judging anyone for their opinions. I stated what I think in the beginning, and everything was pretty much fine until you showed up.



#15 Xarg

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 07:47 PM

Plagiarism

Plagiarism is presenting someone else’s work or ideas as your own, with or without their consent, by incorporating it into your work without full acknowledgement. All published and unpublished material, whether in manuscript, printed or electronic form, is covered under this definition. Plagiarism may be intentional or reckless, or unintentional. Under the regulations for examinations, intentional or reckless plagiarism is a disciplinary offence.

 

University of Oxford


Edited by Xarg, 30 November 2018 - 07:47 PM.

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#16 Amadeus

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 09:11 PM

I'm going to throw my hat into this ring and give my two cents, as I'm actually one of the beta testers of the specific map in question. When I did the first round of testing on this map I noticed the (abundant) similarities, but I was operating under the false assumption that I was either wrong and misremembering how A New Job was or that Springheel had given his permission to use that city block in question. I tried to stay out of it as I figured that issue belonged to better minds that I. I feel terrible about it though. I should have spoken up at the time, but I didn't because I couldn't possibly believe that someone would just outright copy/paste an entire city block from someone else's map.

 

And I'm speaking out now not to stoke the already sky-high flames but for my own piece of mind because I'm fucking frustrated. Months ago, when Biker had posted a call out for people to test Penny Dreadful 2 for bug fixing and minor stuff like that, I volunteered and when I loaded up the .pk4 file and played the game, it was hard not to notice all the creative changes but again, I had assumed they were all sanctioned. They weren't. I went through the map and listed out all the bugs in my notebook and when I finally got back online to post them in the beta thread, I found that I had walked into a shitstorm of drama. Melan was pissed, and rightfully so of course, and he spoke his piece. But I felt fucking awful, I felt like an accessory to a crime because I had unknowingly volunteered to beta test corrupted fruit. 

 

I absolutely love this community and as I'm learning how to make my own map I want to be able to help out in any way I can, be it through beta testing or proofreading/editing, but the shit that is being pulled off right now is NOT okay. I could understand like maybe copy/pasting a pipe or maybe a complicated arch, some kind of obscure patchwork that is hard to replicate (I, personally, hate patches and think they're the devil) but this was a whole city block! That city block is outright plagiarism and I want no part in supporting it.

 

Some1stoleit: I'm sorry you're map is being dragged through the mud like this, that's gotta be frustrating as hell. I'm still happy to help beta test of course (I'm pretty excited for its final release) but only so long as that portion of the map is gone. 

 

Biker, you've been such a helpful person to this community and you've always clocked in a heroic amount of man hours to fix things and help out newcomers, but Judith is right. Copying that city block (or using it as a "template" and only changing a few things around) is NOT okay in any way shape or form and this kind of behavior should not be endorsed or encouraged.  This is on you to fix it.

 

Edit: I hope this is the relevant thread for my semi-rant that didn't quite answer the question, but I didn't want to say this in the beta test thread.


Edited by Amadeus, 30 November 2018 - 09:12 PM.

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#17 teh_saccade

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 12:02 AM


 

I absolutely love this community and as I'm learning how to make my own map I want to be able to help out in any way I can, be it through beta testing or proofreading/editing,

 

 

The main point here is "learning".

I'm sorry for the mean things I said, some1stoleit - but it was in order to provoke discussions such as this by being an arse (a la south park's trevor's axiom), rather than the predicted stamping down and "end of discussion".

The learning is the important part.

Spoiler


How can the community best support new mappers to learn the things to raise TDM's FM quality, without causing stuff like this?

There are two suggestions:

1. Authour includes in the readme what they're fine with people copying, facsimilie.

2. "Learning" FM's are put into editor's guild for the community to play, enjoy and learn from, in a level designer's own thread or in a thread that is specific to this end.


These two things would avoid this issue from occouring again, as well as help people learn through hands on and dissection, rather than monkey-see, monkey-do and elves.

It relies on a cohesive community that follows some kind of social contract, which I believe everyone can respect without things degrading into disagreements, flame-wars or become blown out of proportion and elicit vehement "corrupt fruit" metaphors.

Spoiler


That's the last input from me, because I've repeated myself at least twice in this thread and I'm even boring myself.

Also I doubt anyone reads what I write, unless it's helping to figure a solution to their problem in newbie questions (cos Judith, you know I can't be coherent or brain-fart all over the place - "I never asked for this", is probably more fitting, as Adam Jensen opened DR for the third time).

// patches are awesome.
 


Edited by teh_saccade, 01 December 2018 - 12:05 AM.

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#18 teh_saccade

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 12:10 AM

Also you can't ban Bikerdude - he's a mod hero.

(now I'm done)

Do you want some of my alprazolam, Judith?

It's a sad anniversary for me today so I'm gonna be taking some - they're expired but only by a month.



#19 peter_spy

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 03:42 AM

Thanks you for your input Amadeus, as you described how I feel better than I did.

 

I'm still pretty furious about this, and what made me especially angry about the whole topic is the way Biker puts the whole thing in words, as if it was a minor thing. He uses this tactic very often, you can see that in his "farewell" thread. Using euphemisms to downplay an issue or to place yourself as a victim. And I find this especially sleazy.

 

In this case it was "shh, shh, let's focus on correcting this problem". It's not a bug, leak, or performance issue, for fuck sake. You "correct the problem" deleting the copypasted section and doing the whole thing from scratch. And everybody in the world knows that you just never, ever do things like this. If you have any shreds of decency, you wouldn't even think about doing something like this. It's like speaking to a child why we don't use knives to stab people in the back. For the 10th time.

 

So my last posts were basically preemptive strikes: I'm not falling euphemisms, victim card, or "sorry I'm being an idiot" card.

 

That is to say, this is not a witch hunt (who am I to be such crusader). We are all different and weird bunch of people. I am, as Biker correctly stated, pretty blunt and awfully opinionated on certain things. People I interact here with sometimes feel weird to me, and I'm sure I look weird to them with what I write. We don't see eye to eye on everything, but that's okay. Trust and mutual respect is there, because virtually noone else in the forums pulls off the shit Biker does. Making compulsive changes in maps behind people's backs, taking over maps to fill them with models, copypasting stuff from other maps into other people's work. This is not just being weird, it's weird and fucking scary. That's why I wrote the above, that I feel threatened. The respect and "community darling" status is one thing, but the whole "questionable methods of mentoring", as Biker himself admitted in the farewell thread, haven't changed.

 

I bet TDM veterans are super tired of this already, and none of the pleading worked so far, so maybe this will change something.

 

I am scared of what you do here, Biker, and I don't even want to think of what you'll come up with next time.



#20 STiFU

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 05:06 AM

I don't even want to chime in on this discussion, as I am a bit tired of stuff like this. So I am just gonne say this:

 

 

Biker, please delete the sections as per the screenshots in the main post of this thread. 

 

Next time you need templates, use your own works or just block out a coarse room and do some concept drawings.

 

Always ask the IP owner permission to reuse assets unless they were released to the public for free use.

 

Never plagiarise, you know it's wrong!


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#21 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 05:30 AM

You're dodging questions and playing village idiot. You've played that card way too many times, so I'm not buying it.

 

I'm not buying that you wanted to use Springs portion of a map "as template", because you copypasted the whole section, got caught, and only made slight changes. In the beta thread, Some1stoleit said that this is probably the final iteration before the release. So you're constantly testing the waters, trying to see what you can get away with.

 

You are also dodging the basic question: why are you doing all this? This wasn't even your map, who the hell told you to do this? By pasting your and Spring's parts of the level into Some1stoleit's you are degrading it for no reason. It's his/her first release and first game mapping experience ever, and that's what you're teaching newcomers?

 

These are obvious things to everyone here, and in most mapping communities to be honest. But somehow not to you. Note that you are literally the only one person in this community who regularly causes this kind of backlash.

 

The respect and "community darling" status is one thing, but the whole "questionable methods of mentoring", as Biker himself admitted in the farewell thread, haven't changed.

No I am not and have not dodged any questions, I have answered every thing I have been asked, and there you go again personally attaching me.

 

At this point I am not interested in what you think, I have explained what I was trying to do and and why multiple times.

 

See above, christ are you f**king blind or just belligerently myopic..? I answered those very question/s in the beta thread more than once, but as seems to be a pattern with you, your refusing to see any answer given.

 

I know what I have done in the past, repeatedly Insulting me and then twisting what I have said on previous posts - right now in this thread your the one causing the drama!



#22 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 05:42 AM

Biker, please delete the sections as per the screenshots in the main post of this thread. 

 

Next time you need templates, use your own works

 

Always ask the IP owner permission to reuse assets unless they were released to the public for free use.

Before Judith even started this thread I had already spoken to Some1 to do exactly this, also mentioned that in the beta thread.

 

I did just that, but apparently Judith even found fault with that.

 

When I created The Gatehouse I did exactly that.


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#23 peter_spy

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 06:07 AM

That might be more of a subjective issue, but to me it's really quite apparent, that the surrounding building arrangement is almost a copypasted version of Springheel's "A new job", and the sewer is almost a 1:1 copy of Bikerdude's "Elixir". Not sure why you're doing this...? Anyway, I'm pretty sure people will notice that and will find it a cheap shot.

 

 

But why copypasting in the first place? Just use models to make these sections from scratch, make it different from what we've already seen by using different model combinations, different textures or lighting. Right now, it seems like you want to make a map, but you actually don't feel like making it...

 

 

why are you doing all this? This wasn't even your map, who the hell told you to do this? By pasting your and Spring's parts of the level into Some1stoleit's you are degrading it for no reason. It's his/her first release and first game mapping experience ever, and that's what you're teaching newcomers?

 

Just answer the bloody question, Biker, I'm running out of ways to rephrase it.

 

Why did you copypaste whole sections of other maps into sb else's work? What did you think would come out of it? That people won't notice it? Why did you take over Some1stoleit's map and filled with models? Currently, there's another similar case, a map in the works by JackFarmer, do you plan to "help" him too? What is the purpose of this obsession with other people's layouts and filling them with your own stuff? Will you shove your "mentoring methods" down every new mapper's throat in this forum?



#24 Anderson

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 06:20 AM

— I accidentally delated win.com, what do I do now?
— To the morgue!

 

Whatever is the outcome now, it's probably best for the FM to have the fragments allegedly originating from a fruit of the poisoned tree to be deleted and do it all over to save time/health. No point in arguing because the FM might get beyond "the point of no return". Not good.

 

Playing out retorsion will consume everyone. Just avoid contacts in the future and focus on the good part.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#25 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 07:21 AM

  • Why did you copypaste whole sections of other maps into sb else's work?
  • What did you think would come out of it?
  • That people won't notice it?
  • Why did you take over Some1stoleit's map and filled with models?
  • Currently, there's another similar case, a map in the works by JackFarmer, do you plan to "help" him too?
  • What is the purpose of this obsession with other people's layouts and filling them with your own stuff?
  • Will you shove your "mentoring methods" down every new mapper's throat in this forum?

Im going to re-answer all the same questions yet again just so there is a record of it -

  • The plan was to use parts of NJ as a template/prfab and then change them to suit.
  • After I had changed/customized the templates/prefabs, a new looking layout.
  • See above.
  • If you had bothered to read the beta thread you would have seen, that i was fairly upfront about my intentions and Some1 was happy for me to proceed.
  • This not a question, this is a thinly veiled snipe. If Jack asks for my help, then I would give it - he would then be free to choose if he wanted it or not.
  • Not relevant to this thread, but as you've asked - I don't have an 'obsession with other peoples layouts or filling them with my stuff', I do how ever have a passion for the mod and making it the best it can be. But the manor I have go about doing that was poorly managed, I am and have been working on that.
  • Again not relevant, but again as you have asked - In the past and even with some1, I had been overbearing. In the past I didn't realise what I was doing till it was too late, but with some1 I caught myself and dropped him a PM. I had offered to just do what I originally offered but he was happy for me to continue as I was.

And as we are on subject of asking questions -

  • Why have you repeatedly lumped in my copy and pasting of my own work into this map and tarred it with the same brush?  It was neither correct or relevant to your core question.
  • Why did you go from being civil, to outright belligerent and personally insulting me in the beta thread and now publicly?
  • Why have you refused to or been unable to acknowledge any of the answers I have given you before now?
  • Why at the very start, didnt you drop me a PM and directly confront me with your concerns before posting all of this drama?




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