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#26 Judith

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 08:19 AM

I did paste my questions from the beta thread here because you dodged them there, and now you're doing the same thing here. Stop treating me and everyone else here like an idiot. I'm not going to repeat myself again.



#27 Springheel

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 09:24 AM

 

  • The plan was to use parts of NJ as a template/prfab and then change them to suit.
  • After I had changed/customized the templates/prefabs, a new looking layout.

 

 

 

Please don't refer to it as a "prefab".  That just makes it look like you're trying to minimize the issue.  It was an entire section of the map, complete with the crates, wagon model, trash decals, etc, all in exactly the same spot.

 

And if your plan was to "change them to suit", then why, when I first pointed out the blatant copy/paste, did you reply with this?
 

 


A copy and paste of A New Job? Even the position of the wagons is the same.

Which I have mentioned several times in the tut vids, Some1stoleit is free to move & change things if its problem.

 

 

You didn't say, "oops, I'm an idiot" then.  You didn't apologize, you didn't admit wrong-doing....you just doubled down and tried to make it sound like it was okay to plagiarize my work because you "mentioned it" in your tutorial vids.  "IF it's a problem", you said. And you said nothing about having plans to move anything--you were going to leave that to someone else.  It makes it look a lot like you had no plans to do anything further until you were called out on it, and only then did you start changing things around.


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#28 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 12:39 PM

I did paste my questions from the beta thread here because you dodged them there, and now you're doing the same thing here. Stop treating me and everyone else here like an idiot. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

What planet are you on? you haven't answered my questions. I answered your questions and then asked you a few of mine, but not your not prepared to do the same? I'm treating you like an idiot because your a hypocrite.

  • Please don't refer to it as a "prefab".  That just makes it look like you're trying to minimize the issue. 
  • And if your plan was to "change them to suit", then why, when I first pointed out the blatant copy/paste, did you reply with this?
  • You didn't say, "oops, I'm an idiot" then.  You didn't apologize, you didn't admit wrong-doing....
  • you just doubled down and tried to make it sound like it was okay to plagiarize my work because you "mentioned it" in your tutorial vids.  "IF it's a problem", you said. And you said nothing about having plans to move anything--you were going to leave that to someone else. 
  • It makes it look a lot like you had no plans to do anything further until you were called out on it, and only then did you start changing things around.
  • Prefab, template in the context of what I was trying to do what should I call it? I certainly wasn't purposely trying minimize the issue that Judith raised, albeit poorly.
  • In retrospect I should have been clearer about what needed to be done or what I would have to do, it just didn't occur to me at the time that I would need to do far more than just rotating the map and moving stuff around. It was only after Judith tactlessly pointed that there was still section that were identical,  it was then looked at the whole map and realised that I screwed up because forgot to change these sections.
  • I can't argue with that statement, I didn't apologise because the plan was to only use the section as a base to create a new street. I did think about PM'ing before then, but in the past pm msg's I have sent you show as unread by you for days/weeks.
  • I have never at anytime since being a member of this community condoned plagiarism, despite how many times in this thread I have been tarred with that brush. But I did fail to fully consider all the things that should have happened while I worked on the map.
  • I did have plan but I badly executed it.

I apologise to you personally -

  • for using parts of your map before getting a response from you.
  • for not adequately changing said portions when it was pointed out to me, and for not properly acknowledging said feedback and making it clear how I was going make those changes.
  • for failing to properly consider my actions due in part to just plain forgetting.  

Edited by Bikerdude, 01 December 2018 - 12:44 PM.


#29 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 01:00 PM

The day after the 2nd of Judith's posts in the beta thread, and then some issues at work - I realised that there might be an underlying problem that has been effecting me. I then I emailed the team at large, If anyone else on the forum wants a copy, drop me a PM/email.

 

If after considering my past history and the points made in this thread, enough of the team agree the community and I need a time out, I have no problem with that.



#30 ERH+

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 01:53 PM

There could be some examples when it would be a point in copying whole sections: expanding someones vision to make the game's world coherent. Using location's architectural style, revisiting same place in completely different scenario, using something like city's main hub as a starting point for new adventures - making the player already familiar with surroundings at the very beginning, so the hard part of creating immersion is achieved (by someone else!).

 

But by definition it assumes you make it as clear as it can be that there is some story behind it, events already told, and it is in your interest to point to that source. You want to stand on someone shoulders. It is beyond me why someone as talented as Bikerdude need to take such a shortcut instead of making section from scratch, but if it is his weakness - and in any case I described - permission and crediting is a must.


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#31 Judith

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 01:58 PM

You have all the explanations about my anger right here in this thread. I'm not going to spell it out for you again, you can read. Although you're constantly twisting words in your favor, acting like a child that doesn't understand basic concepts of what constitues your own work, and what is plagiarism. Again, it's like talking to a child that we use knives to slice bread, not to stab people. The problem is, that this child is in his 40s or 50s now (wild guess on my part).

 

All anger aside, I want you to know that I consider you a threat to both my eventual work, and to other people's past, present, and future work. To the community as a whole. And I will speak up every goddamn time I see something like this happening again.


Edited by Judith, 01 December 2018 - 02:00 PM.


#32 duzenko

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 03:21 PM

 

I do how ever have a passion for the mod and making it the best it can be.

 

In the past and even with some1, I had been overbearing. In the past I didn't realise what I was doing till it was too late,

 

 

I apologise to you personally -

Not to start another verbal battle, but the important words have been spoken.

As long as Biker can find his own fault and confess it in public, the matter is settled in my eyes.

I know I'm not perfect by any benchmark so Biker you can have my compassion

 

Personally I find the copy-pasted geometry in missions to be obviously pathetic but no more than that. What is more annoying for me is the repetitive pick N locks & frob M goblets gameplay.


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#33 Aldo

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 03:47 PM

Relax guys, all the work done on dark mod is amazing.  I would love to see some of the older FMs refurbished into better FMs.  If someone used parts of another FM and created a great mission it would not worry me in the slightest, as long as the original author is credited.


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#34 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 04:07 PM

You have all the explanations about my anger right here in this thread. I'm not going to spell it out for you again, you can read. Although you're constantly twisting words in your favor, acting like a child that doesn't understand basic concepts of what constitues your own work, and what is plagiarism. Again, it's like talking to a child that we use knives to slice bread, not to stab people.

 

Its clear you are never going to admit when your wrong, not answer a question when directly asked. You accuse me of twisting words yet you are doing exactly the same thing. And regarding "what constitutes your own work" I asked you why you multiple times why you lumped that in with your complaint - you have yet to answer just that question never mind the others I asked.

 

 And regarding what you want me know, due to your belligerently myopic hostility - at this point I couldn't care less. Your grand sweeping statements, we have been there done that. And calling me Out when I screw up, by all means - but whether its worth listening to anything you have to have to say after todays rant is another matter.


Edited by Bikerdude, 01 December 2018 - 07:14 PM.


#35 Aldo

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 04:28 PM

They are called fan missions, not critics missions.  I've personally learnt a lot from looking at other peoples maps, and am happy that they are available.  If some authors are so concerned with copying, maybe a form of encryption should be investigated.  You are awesome bikerdude, don't let anything bring you down dude.


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#36 Judith

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 04:35 PM

Biker, you got caught plagiarising Springs work, twice. That's a fact.

 

First time you got reprimended, super politely, given the situation, by Spring. Second time it was me, asking why are you doing it. You started dodging the problem by talking about correcting stuff, which is 1000% not what the problem it was, thus my anger. And you still try to hold that line of defence, even if it's completely ridiculous by now. Your understanding certain words and actions in your very peculiar way is a recurring problem, and you're literally the only person in the whole community who has problems with this. And people have problems this big only with you. Take a while and let that image burn it into your mind.

 

You seem to be very troubled, as noone with even an ounce of self-respect would do things you've done up to now.

 

Take a big long break, be it a year or two, sort your stuff out, get proper medication, if necessary, and only then come back.



#37 New Horizon

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 05:05 PM

*
POPULAR

Guys....that's enough.  Stop.


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#38 LDAsh

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 05:25 PM

I have to say, this is outright embarrassing and the whole thread should be nuked from orbit.  You would figure, the project would be trying to gain/retain as many mappers as possible, so it can continue to grow, instead of drama and flamewars ripping everything apart.

And so we'd see more additions here:-

http://www.thedarkmod.com/missions/

Which it's interesting to compare the amount of times Bikerdude's name is found on that page, compared to Judith... just saying.


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#39 STiFU

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 06:04 PM

Having tons of missions released (granted, which we are all thankful for), is not a legitimation to do with other people's work as you please. Judith is merely the latest person to point out an ever recurring issue. Yes, IT IS embarassing for our community, but the drama does not follow Judith here.


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#40 Springheel

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 06:04 PM

Which it's interesting to compare the amount of times Bikerdude's name is found on that page, compared to Judith... just saying.

 

 

Maybe you should take the number of times Bikerdude's name appears on that list and compare it to Airship Ballet's, mine, Goldwell's, Melan's, and Sir Taffsalot's--all mappers who have been exasperated by Bikerdude's behaviour, some of whom left because of it.  That list doesn't include the non-mappers, like SteveL.  Judith is just the most recent person to call him out.

 

But there's no point in going on about it any further.  It's clear nothing is going to change.  The only question is how long it will be until the next bout of drama, and who might leave next because of it.


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#41 SiyahParsomen

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 06:48 PM

Maybe protection mechanism for fan mission is not bad idea at all, since plagiarism is happening even by a mod hero. It doesn't prevent the author to grant permission and share source files with a person via private chat.


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#42 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 07:26 PM

It's clear nothing is going to change.

Some things have changed -

with some1 I caught myself and dropped him a PM. I had offered to just do what I originally offered but he was happy for me to continue as I was.

 



#43 teh_saccade

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 10:45 PM

Guys....that's enough.  Stop.

 

 

This is outright embarrassing and the whole thread should be nuked from orbit.



#44 Judith

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 05:49 AM

Some things have changed -

 

That's only your own account, based on your private messages, against public evidence and accounts from multiple people. Do you even realise how pathetic it sounds? Yeah, things have changed, from doing things behind Melan's back to stealing other mappers' work.

 

I agree that this has to stop, but without any action, it will be worse next time, as you already witnessed. Any persuation or pleading doesn't work, it never did. And you can't trust Biker to actually take a break, as he will be sneaking back here at some point, just as he did lately.

 

Maybe disabling viewing and posting privileges for TDM Editors Guild and Beta forums will do? It's not a full ban, and this way Biker can work on his own maps, without trying to "help" anyone or damaging the community further.


Edited by Judith, 02 December 2018 - 05:49 AM.


#45 Anderson

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 07:49 AM

Additionally there was a tremendous amount of work on this, so accepting or denying help is entirely on the person and the degree to which they are willing to share that work in some cases: http://forums.thedar...rsion-30/page-1

 

But censorship is not the way to go.

 

If problems persist, the mission just won't get published on the site officially, until all issues are remedied in a satisfactory manner. That is sufficient.


Edited by Anderson, 02 December 2018 - 07:50 AM.

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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#46 HMart

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 09:22 AM

My thoughts about this is that, even tho is a free game, where the original intention was to make a open tool set for people to make missions, and even tho everyone's map file, is open to everyone to mess with, this kind of practice shouldn't not be condoned, and basic guidelines should be followed, by everyone, no matter how respected within the community you are.

 

This would be my personal guidelines:

 

No copy/pasting of other people sections with minimal change, if you do so ask permission, if permission is giving, still try to change it enough that no big similarities can be discerned, this is so gamers don't feel they are playing the same mission all over again.

If you do it without permission (if you are a ass and imo a criminal) at least have the decency to change it enough, so the original author doesn't know, ignorance in this case is bliss, is best to be oblivious then to feel robbed and stop making missions because someone else lacks creativity.

Without express permission from the autor, no rework/change, big or small, of other people missions, at least for public release. Even tho they don't own TDM assets, the author spent a large amount of time arranging them on that particular way, and for them that ends felling like their "baby", no matter your opinion that should be respected period. If this means that in the case the author is unreachable, some old mission will stop working, because a TDM engine update needs missions to be reworked, so be it, remove it from the list and wait for the author to complain, small inconvenience to save from dramas like this one.    


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#47 Springheel

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 09:24 AM

If problems persist, the mission just won't get published on the site officially, until all issues are remedied in a satisfactory manner. That is sufficient.

 

 

It's worth noting that the only reason the plagiarism is now being remedied is because Judith raised the issue.  Otherwise the map would have been published with the stolen section intact, even though I pointed out the theft ages ago.  I don't blame Some1stoleit or the other beta-testers for that--they would assume Bikerdude had asked for permission to use the plagiarized section, because literally everyone else on the forum would know to get permission first.


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#48 Anderson

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:04 AM

 

It's worth noting that the only reason the plagiarism is now being remedied is because Judith raised the issue.  Otherwise the map would have been published with the stolen section intact, even though I pointed out the theft ages ago.  I don't blame Some1stoleit or the other beta-testers for that--they would assume Bikerdude had asked for permission to use the plagiarized section, because literally everyone else on the forum would know to get permission first.

 

 

 

If you do it without permission (if you are a ass and imo a criminal) at least have the decency to change it enough,

 

Partially agreed, but if it's true, still too harsh to call it criminal. It's a misdemeanor at best.

 

All this being considered, the FM is still WIP. It is my humble understanding that the aforementioned section of the map can still be modified to the point where it won't resemble the copied part. Ergo, either it is removed or modified to indiscernible/negligible similarity in regards to the initial complaint and become eligible for release for the satisfaction of everyone. Among other things, it seems to have been the original intent.

Very early to say anything categorically.


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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#49 Judith

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:26 AM

Given the circumstances, I'd consider two options: 1) deleting the whole copypasted section and making it from scratch, or, to further distance yourself and the mission from the whole affair: 2) to make everything from scratch. Some1stoleit learned a lot during the development process, I'm sure he will do well on his own now. Making everything from the ground up will be a pain, but it will ensure everything is original work.


Edited by Judith, 02 December 2018 - 01:16 PM.


#50 Nightcrawler

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:34 AM

I followed this discussion carefully and I don't want to open wounds begining to heal, but as Judith encouraged all parts of the community to participate in this discussion I wanted to give my two cents.

The mere thing I am concerned is what message should we as mappers, modelers and creative folk take from this discussion when it comes to building upon other people's work?

As I understand some of you (mainly Spring and Judith) are not very happy to share their work if others can then re-adapt re-use and alter the work.
 

To me, this is serious, quite dangerous precedent. It's not using abandoned work with sb else's blessing. It's also not an homage, as there's little creativity being shown here. This is copypasting and slightly tweaking sb else's work to speed up your mapping process. To me, it's self-degrading and admitting creative failure. Doing it with sections of your own map might just be poor taste and your personal matter, but doing it with someone else's work? That's whole another level. Do we have to start protecting .map files somehow, or have some kind of community guidelines in place on this?


There are a lot of times where copying and pasting entire sections of someone else's mission might be acceptable:

1. You want to re-use an existing game-world location (like the Braeden City Hall) and you get the original mapper's permission.
2. You are a new mapper who doesn't know how to make things on their own, and you get the original mapper's permission.
3. You are pressed for time, or looking for shortcuts for other reasons, and you get the original mapper's permission.
4. You make so many changes to the original section that no one would recognize it.

However, none of those apply in this case.


However if I understand the terms of the CC-BY-NC-SA 3.0 license under which TDM (along with all its assets and maps i assume) is licensed correctly then tdm maps and assets can be re-used and adapted without the authors explicit permission. All of you tdm authors granted these rights to everybody by releasing your maps and assets under this license. Of course anyone building upon your work will get these rights only in the case that he or she accepts to
  • Give Attribution to the original authors
  • Don't use the work in a comercial context
  • Release his/her derived work under the very same license and conditions
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only violation (if at all) I can see in this affair is that Biker did not attribute Spring in the first place. Please consider that we are not talking about an officially released mission that is sopposed to be shipped with readme file, where you attribute people whose work you've adapted. It's a mission in beta test not ready for release yet. So I still disbelief that Biker's behaviour violated the license terms.

The problem I see is rather a moral issue. People in this thread have pointed it out: It's uncreative, it's discouraging for the original mapper who put a lot of time and blood into creating the map. And asking the author for permission surely wouldn't have hurt. Most of the times original author and adapting author will be able to find some sort of agreement on which parts can be re-used under which conditions.

But in some cases the problem might persist and that's why all of you (current and future) author must ask yourself if you want to build an tdm fan mission knowing that people may re-use your work without asking you explicitely for permission. It might sound harsh, but if you are not happy with seeing your missions and assets re-used, releasing your work under a Creative Commons license might not be the right thing for you.

I've not released a fan mission yet and cannot understand how much work has to be put into it. So veteran mappers might have a different view. But I personally think I would be happy if other people used my mission to build upon provided they do not apprpriate my mission but leave a thank you note for me in their release notes and share their missions alike.

The ability to re-use other people's work is what makes Creative Commons and Open Source so great. Don't give up on this easily.

Edited by Nightcrawler, 02 December 2018 - 10:40 AM.

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