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#26 chakkman

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 07:49 AM

I read all this, and, while i have no insight about what has been going on behind the curtains, and, while i understand the points made, i still think it is so feaking sad, because Bikerdude's maps were among my favorites every time, and i never had the feeling that he's notoriously and blatantly copying from anyone. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, and people also acted partly because of a general dislike? At least the latest discussions on this forums really make me think so.



#27 peter_spy

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:05 AM

If Biker takes work from someone else's mission and incorporates it into a new mappers mission then it's up to the new mapper to do what Spooks and Dragofer so easily did. JUST. SAY. NO!!!

 

Sure, not having admin or upload privileges helps, but IMO community shouldn't be asked for time, energy, and patience to comb through every new Biker's creation to see whether he copypasted something or not. People usually don't assume bad intent, and the last case was kind of an accident.

 

It seems like Biker doesn't understand the difference between using modules or prefabs, and copypasting whole portions of other people's maps (it's the same thing as with music, noone will sue you for using instrument samples, you end up in court for using someone else's instrument arrangement). He was confronted about it three times lately, and every time he made only cosmetic changes. He was immune to everything from calm requests to public shaming. That was a lot of time and energy wasted, by several people, that could be better spent on making content or helping others.


Edited by Judith, 02 January 2019 - 08:06 AM.

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#28 STiFU

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:10 AM

If Biker takes work from someone else's mission and incorporates it into a new mappers mission then it's up to the new mapper to do what Spooks and Dragofer so easily did. JUST. SAY. NO!!!

It's not like revoking access rights fixes things like plagiarism and unauthorized map updates, though. A newbie mapper might be afraid to stand up to a veteran mapper of his calibre and can't "JUST.SAY.NO". I also don't understand why other people should be forced to put up with stuff like that at all.

 

We tried to solve this issue in other ways before. It didn't work out. The ban hammer was the last resort.


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#29 New Horizon

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:20 AM

Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, and people also acted partly because of a general dislike? At least the latest discussions on this forums really make me think so.

 

Sorry, but no there is no general dislike of Biker as a person.  His actions, yes, but not him as a person.  I don't know how many different ways it can be said but here goes one last time.

 

The plagiarizing is only the latest issue, he had also been making unwanted changes to other mappers work.  Asking to 'bug fix' a few particular issues and then redesigning their maps to his liking.  That is NOT acceptable and we have given him a pass for long enough. This has been going on for several years and we lost talented mappers because of it. He has been spoken to again and again and again.  Yet, the problem keeps happening.  WHY?  I have personally defended him on many occasions.  Enough years wasted and enough chances given.  I'm sorry but he has had enough time to learn from his mistakes.  When you keep making the same mistake over and over it's no longer a mistake, it's a CHOICE.  


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#30 New Horizon

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:29 AM

 

It seems like Biker doesn't understand the difference between using modules or prefabs

 

I'm inclined to agree.  Thief 3 level creation was pretty much all based on using existing modules and skins to build your own environments but copy / pasting an arrangement someone else made and just changing the skins and adding a tree here and there doesn't count as an original creation.

 

He's a talented mapper with some really great skills when it comes to optimizing, but I think maybe the praise has gone to his head because he just charges ahead making changes to another persons work.  It's just not common sense.


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#31 Obsttorte

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:40 AM


When you keep making the same mistake over and over it's no longer a mistake, it's a CHOICE.

Amen


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#32 HMart

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:43 AM

I'm sad that BD add to go but based on the evidence I saw I can't really blame the admins for doing it, I just hope he returns one day, knowing that he did wrong and with true conviction that he will not do the same errors again, if not I can only give thanks for the good work he did the nice missions he helped make and for having some help in making TDM what it is today, almost from the beginning if not from the beginning. 

About the community breaking after this, that will only happen if the ones that stay let that happen, there's others equally talent mission makers still around and new ones starting, they deserve a stable community don't let this drama get to you, my 2 cents.  



#33 freyk

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:52 AM

As for that i know (reading several topics),
imho is giving Bikerdude a forum ban, is a bit over-reacted.

(an other punischment would be apreciated, like changeing system permissions)

 

As we all know, creating/changing/fixing/copying things takes time.
My opinion about changing/fixing/copying objects, is that I see it as a compliment to the original author.
Because people dont copy ugly things.
Sometimes the original author doesnt have time to read player coments, fix the mission or have other interests.
So If another author repairs/change something,
- as the original author, im humble and would apreciated his help/time.
- And as a player, i dont Care!

I dont know how the TDM publisching system works.
I think,if somebody want to change something, he can download and change the mission and upload the mission to another location?
Or is it possible to overwrite the existing mission? That shouldnt and must not be possible.

And if the missions are licensed under cc license, i dont see the "NoDerivatives" nowhere.

As a player i dont care that people help building nice missions,
but i care when there are no people who build them.


Edited by freyk, 02 January 2019 - 09:09 AM.

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#34 HMart

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:41 AM

IMO the loss of SteveL in particular and other 4 team members was a big blow to the mod and Bikerdude had some effect on that, so not everything he did was right, but perhaps those that went away only used him has a excuse, perhaps they were already tired of working on the game and biker behavior was just the trigger they needed to go away, lets see if some of them will return after the ban.

 

About the ban itself I don't think it was a overreaction, it came after complaints of plagiarism and Bikerdude changing portions of missions without permission, in at least a case he claimed permission was given only to be dismissed by the author, situations that lead to heated discussions, talks about rules of conduct, how to handle reuse of assets, etc and many warning towards him, according to Springheel, Biker even asked to be banned in some occasions, even made a thread saying that he was going away, because of discomfort he was causing so he was aware things were not fine, only after that and a generous amount of patience from the rest of the TDM team did he got banned, so imo this didn't came out of the blue and was not a knee jerk reaction.   


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#35 jaxa

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:53 AM

If someone asks for a ban, no tears need to be shed if they (eventually) get that ban.

 

I saw some tangential discussion about encrypting/DRMing PK4s. That should not be considered. The official TDM website/downloader should simply not host missions that violate someone's licensing (e.g. copying creative commons licensed map work with no credit or permission). There is nothing stopping some third-party website from hosting mission ripoffs, illegally copied assets from the Thief games recreated as TDM missions, etc.


Edited by jaxa, 02 January 2019 - 09:54 AM.


#36 chakkman

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 10:20 AM

 

Sorry, but no there is no general dislike of Biker as a person.  His actions, yes, but not him as a person.  I don't know how many different ways it can be said but here goes one last time.

 

The plagiarizing is only the latest issue, he had also been making unwanted changes to other mappers work.  Asking to 'bug fix' a few particular issues and then redesigning their maps to his liking.  That is NOT acceptable and we have given him a pass for long enough. This has been going on for several years and we lost talented mappers because of it. He has been spoken to again and again and again.  Yet, the problem keeps happening.  WHY?  I have personally defended him on many occasions.  Enough years wasted and enough chances given.  I'm sorry but he has had enough time to learn from his mistakes.  When you keep making the same mistake over and over it's no longer a mistake, it's a CHOICE.  

 

Fair enough. Especially as i know that you're not the kind of guy who'd easily, and quickly disrespect or exclude someone. Can't be said for everyone, but, the way i know the people involved in this mod, i guess there's definitely something about Bikerdude that pisses other people off. I only know him through his posts in this forum, so. Although the Windows 10 threads, and others kind of annoyed me too. :P



#37 CarltonTroisi

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 02:12 PM

No, I'm pretty sure the thanks he got for his countless hours were near universal praise from the membership for his work, and constant helpful attitude.

 

 

 

 

If you've really "been watching" you'll know the things he's being punished for. "Heavy handed adjustment for bug fixing" = remodeling significant parts of a map that weren't considered buggy? Or even altering a map that permission wasn't given for and inventing entirely in his own head that permission was even given? "Really?"? How heavy this hand must be!

"Wanton use of templates" is the same as copying whole-cloth from other missions and doubling-down when confronted on it? "For real?"? I don't think you've been watching all that closely at all. That or you think everyone else is a liar?

 

I agree with you, of course, and I don't think folks are lying.

 

That said, I downplay his controversial actions, because I think it stems from a real-life issue.  (I was going to speculate on that, but perhaps that's not proper.)  Whatever the issue may be, he's trying to compensate for that by taking control in those places where he is joined, but when it's not enough, it becomes overreach.  And look, I could well be wrong.  It's just a suspicion.  Maybe not even fair to post given he can't speak for himself now, but this is what my intuition tells me about it, so felt I would chime in.


Edited by CarltonTroisi, 02 January 2019 - 02:25 PM.

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#38 kano

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 02:28 PM

One change to a third party mission that he made and I personally dislike is the ambient track on A Night to Remember. The original track selected by FieldMedic was better; it was much less repetitive. It had more depth and was creepier. It fit the setting perfectly. The track the new version has isn't something you want to listen to for five+ minutes straight. The new track is suitable for brief listening, like exploring bedrooms or something. But it doesn't jive nearly as well when exploring a creepy house.


Edited by kano, 02 January 2019 - 02:31 PM.


#39 STiFU

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 06:58 PM

Please don't start analyzing our lost member now or ranting about his works As you already stated, that's not really fair here. The scope of this thread was to explain the reasoning of the team regarding the current situation and we should leave it at that. 


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#40 kano

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:01 PM

Yeah sorry, I don't mean to attack the guy; he's given us lots of great missions like Alberic's Curse and St. Alban's Cathedral, as well as helped others improve their maps and taught them how, but it was just a realization that not every change to a mission is for the better.



#41 AluminumHaste

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:33 PM

His antics are one of the reasons I have almost completely stopped doing anything on the game.

Every time I came here to check the forums, there was some drama about him.

 

The guy was great and a workhorse, but he crossed the line way too many times over the YEARS and YEARS.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#42 Kurshok

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:54 PM

Well, I hope this string of developments doesn't negatively impact the community.
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#43 Jetrell

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:06 PM

What is done is done. I'm sure Bikerdude will move on to other things and I'm also certain that this community will continue thrive.

 

There's been a lot of talk about Bikerdude creating a lot of unnecessary drama in these forums but I've also noticed something else. In the process of calling him out on his infractions, members of this community resorted to name calling, profanity, personal attacks etc... This type of behavior is a toxic cancer. It not only reflects poorly on the author(s) of these comments but it also reflects very poorly on TDM as well so I was surprised that it wasn't addressed as it goes directly against the Forum Rules posted by Springheel. To quote The Social Network movie, "The Internet's not written in pencil, it's written in ink."

 

Aside from all of that, I can't help but wonder if all of this could have been avoided. At some point, Bikerdude asked to be banned but for whatever reason his request was denied. Fine, that was a decent gesture of goodwill on your part but knowing what you already knew, it would have been wise to setup some simple conditions to his membership chiefly, he could no longer work on anyone else's maps (no exceptions) but he could continue to post suggestions in these forums and he could make his own maps (no collaborations). If there were any further transgressions he would be immediately and permanently banned. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't have worked but I can assure you that the final results would have been far less messy.

 

With all that being said, I agree with Dragofer & nbohr1more and what they said in their posts. How does someone ask for help for a particular problem but instead they get a very different result (map redesign) but they still go ahead and publish their map and then at some later point, they cry foul? That just doesn't add up.

 

Edit: I mistakenly forgot to mention Dragofer when I originally posted this so I corrected this oversight.


Edited by Jetrell, 03 January 2019 - 11:31 AM.

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#44 New Horizon

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 08:24 AM

Because we wanted to give him another chance to correct course and prove himself.  Banning isn't something we take lightly, but when you defend someone and they repeatedly let you down...well, you have to draw a line somewhere.

 

 

 Bikerdude asked to be banned but for whatever reason his request was denied.


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#45 Springheel

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 09:44 AM

*
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 How does someone ask for help for a particular problem but instead they get a very different result (map redesign) but they still go ahead and publish their map and then at some later point, they cry foul? That just doesn't add up.

 

"That doesn't add up"?  What are you insinuating there?

 

If you take the time to read the relevant threads, you can see that Bikerdude created a beta-testing thread for the revised mission, and then submitted the revised map for release, presumably without asking for Spoonman's input on the changes:

 

Ok gonna Pm Goldwell to get the release version added tothe mirrors and get the FM page updated.

 

 

Spoonman already explained he didn't see the changes until recently because he hadn't logged in for several months.

 

This is exactly the same stunt Bikerdude tried to pull on Melan, and the only reason it didn't succeed there was because Melan happened to be around and catch it before it was released.

 

I think it goes without saying that mappers shouldn't have to log into the forums constantly to make sure Bikerdude isn't making unauthorized changes to their maps, or copying their maps into other people's missions. 

 

These problems have been going on for at least the last three years now, and we tried several things before getting to this stage.  First we removed his admin privileges, then his team-member status.  He deleted half the forum in an attempt to nuke his own account, and we gave him more chances. He admitted to causing several team-members to leave the mod, and we gave him more chances.  He asked us to ban him at least three times and we kept giving him more chances.  He quit the mod "permanently" because, in his own words, "I am not learning enough from my mistakes", yet he was welcomed back when he changed his mind.  He was given far more chances than any other community member would get, precisely because of the helpful things he did, but he just kept burning through them.  At some point, enough is enough.


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#46 Jetrell

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 11:39 AM

I'm not arguing against the final decision to ban Bikerdude. All I am saying is, if maybe earlier on certain conditions had been imposed maybe the outcome would have been different.

 

As for why I said, "things didn't add up", after reading what Dragofer & nbohr1more had said in their earlier posts, I was under the impression that "only a select few have access to the TDM mission repository for uploading mission updates of a map". I guess I don't fully understand the entire process of publishing a map because it seems odd to me that any member can just decide to revise someone else's map and then publish that altered map. But if that's the case then things do add up, thanks for the clarification.


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#47 OrbWeaver

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 12:46 PM

I saw some tangential discussion about encrypting/DRMing PK4s. That should not be considered.

 

Just to state again for the record, applying any kind of effective encryption-based DRM to released PK4s is impossible and has never been given any serious consideration by the development team.


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#48 Taquito.

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 01:35 PM

Wow! I had no idea about this issue with Bikerdude. He's one of my favorite members here. Hope the ban will be lifted over time. I do understand the severity of the situation. The saddest part is he posted some really nice pics about an FM he was about to finish.



#49 kano

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 03:18 PM

Presumably he could still send in the mission that he is working on if he feels like it. I know all of us players would enjoy it; his maps were some of my favorites. But I don't know how he feels at the moment; Maybe he's angry, maybe he's putting the TDM project behind him completely, or maybe he feels like just taking a break. I kind of doubt he would abandon TDM/Thief completely, because as far as I know he has been into it since the early 2000s, making missions for T2.

 

Time will tell, I guess.



#50 peter_spy

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 03:28 PM

Cleaning Up The Neighborhood mission is still coming, if that's what you meant.

 

Btw. Biker was also banned from TTLG quite some time ago (both nicks he used there), although no idea why.






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