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So.....no more Thief games?


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#1 frostdiamond

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 01:55 PM

I haven't played the reboot though I heard it's mediocre at best.  To me, good experiences in Thief series ended in Thief 2.  DS had a few good missions, though not enough to make it a quality entry in the series.

 

Since the reboot apparently tanked, has anyone heard any exciting news?

 

On another note, Commandos series, another one of my all time fav stealth game, is getting a proper remake.



#2 kano

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 02:13 PM

Probably not. The thing is that Thief 1 and 2 were pretty far from what you get with mainstream games today. And publishers only care about money. And to make money, they must appeal to the mainstream. So any new Thief game that comes out will be Thief in name only.

 

For the record, I might have bought and played Thief 4 if it wasn't like every game today and didn't require some online service like Steam in order to play. I wouldn't have paid full price for it, given the lack of fan mission editing tools and even a dedicated jump key, but I would have picked it up on sale. But as long as publishers believe they know better than me what I want from a product, (how about a Linux version too?) I'll continue not giving them money.

 

Maybe I'll get a used copy for the console for $5 some day... Maybe.


Edited by kano, 06 February 2019 - 02:15 PM.


#3 jaxa

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 03:21 PM

I watched a couple of YouTube videos praising Thief 1+2 or trashing Thief 4. One thing that was highlighted was the difference in maps. In T1+2, the briefing would usually explain how you got your map, and it would often be rough or incomplete. In Thief 4, you just get handed a 100% detailed map with markers that wouldn't be out of place in a first person shooter. You could compare it to how you had to kind of plan how to get around the game world in TES: Morrowind, vs. the fast travel and quest markers in Oblivion and Skyrim. There are obviously other things to criticize about Thief 4 such as the combat takedowns, story, etc. but what was done with the map shows you how the soul of the series was simply not present.

 

So yes, no more Thief games. The last Thief game was the lackluster but passable Thief: Deadly Shadows in 2004, which already showed signs of consolization and player hand holding. By today, the AAA game studios are fully incapable of making a true Thief game, and would probably include DLC maps or weapon microtransactions.



#4 Cambridge Spy

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:06 PM

On another note, Commandos series, another one of my all time fav stealth game, is getting a proper remake.

What do you mean Commandos is getting a proper remake?


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#5 chakkman

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 06:13 PM

It's a different game, but... I find that Dishonored is very Thief-like. It has a lot of elements of Deus Ex as well though, but, that's a good thing in my book. Definitely check that series out, if you haven't already. Quite similar atmosphere.

Edited by chakkman, 06 February 2019 - 06:14 PM.

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#6 lowenz

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 08:21 PM

I haven't played the reboot though I heard it's mediocre at best.  To me, good experiences in Thief series ended in Thief 2.  DS had a few good missions, though not enough to make it a quality entry in the series.

It's not SO mediocre.....the narrative is. The NPC characterisation  is. The city navigation is. The side quests are. The loot is literally MEAN (you steal ink bottles, man, is this a big GIANT joke?) :D

Gameplay is OK. The City design is artistically very good.

 

It feels like.....DX Mankind Divided vs the pure-golden Human Revolution.


Edited by lowenz, 06 February 2019 - 08:24 PM.

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#7 brethren

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 09:01 PM

I'm really surprised we haven't seen a indie attempt at Thief show up on Steam yet.   TDM has proven that it can be done.   There are literally dozens of System Shock clones, but not one Thief attempt.



#8 demagogue

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 09:34 PM

Thief 4's story is ridiculous. The gameplay suffers from some annoyances. But like lowenz says, the art design is pretty great. That makes it worth it to me (granting that I got it free because that joint TDM-T4 contest; so I didn't have to really go through the debate whether to buy it). But I regularly watch lots of bad stuff to trowel them for good ideas. It's still no excuse, considering Dishonored had amazing art design and cool gameplay and story.

 

I'm fine with it being a retired series so it can stand proudly on its own & new IP can come and do new things.

As for the great gameplay itself, it's our job here to keep the levels coming as FMs.

It our responsibility to history if you want to be melodramatic about it.


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#9 stumpy

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 09:57 PM

thief 4 has some stupid cabinets you can hide in from the guards even if they are chasing you, the guards wont open the cabinets and find you because they can't. Even if you were in plain sight and in the light and about a foot away, just pop into that cabinet and the guards lose instant interest in you. It seems as soon as you enter a cabinet the guards alert state gets turned off. the cabinets are everywhere, just makes stealth pointless.

 

Plus you are not actually playing Garrett from thief 1, 2, 3.



#10 frostdiamond

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:48 PM

Probably not. The thing is that Thief 1 and 2 were pretty far from what you get with mainstream games today. And publishers only care about money. And to make money, they must appeal to the mainstream. So any new Thief game that comes out will be Thief in name only.

 

For the record, I might have bought and played Thief 4 if it wasn't like every game today and didn't require some online service like Steam in order to play. I wouldn't have paid full price for it, given the lack of fan mission editing tools and even a dedicated jump key, but I would have picked it up on sale. But as long as publishers believe they know better than me what I want from a product, (how about a Linux version too?) I'll continue not giving them money.

 

Maybe I'll get a used copy for the console for $5 some day... Maybe.

 

It's on sale for less than $5 USD on Steam, right now, mate  : )



#11 jaxa

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 10:52 PM

Read what you quoted, frostdiamond:

 

I might have bought and played Thief 4 if it wasn't like every game today and didn't require some online service like Steam in order to play.
Maybe I'll get a used copy for the console


#12 frostdiamond

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:01 PM

What do you mean Commandos is getting a proper remake?

 

 

: )

 

https://www.google.c...131.H_5LNhM86lc



#13 frostdiamond

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:03 PM

It's a different game, but... I find that Dishonored is very Thief-like. It has a lot of elements of Deus Ex as well though, but, that's a good thing in my book. Definitely check that series out, if you haven't already. Quite similar atmosphere.

 

Yup.  Finished the first Dishonored, LOVED IT.  Probably the closest thing we'd get to a modern day Thief game.


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#14 frostdiamond

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:06 PM

Plus you are not actually playing Garrett from thief 1, 2, 3.

 

This is the part that bothered me the most.  I want Stephen back.

 

Apparently the new character Erin is a total drag, too.



#15 Cambridge Spy

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:09 PM

So they're remastering a title. Have they actually announced a new game? Is Kalypso some company you can trust? And of course, there's no links from high profile gaming sites (aka. the corrupt, incompetent faces of the gaming industry).


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#16 frostdiamond

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:55 PM

So they're remastering a title. Have they actually announced a new game? Is Kalypso some company you can trust? And of course, there's no links from high profile gaming sites (aka. the corrupt, incompetent faces of the gaming industry).

 

I haven't played any Kalypso games before, but frankly speaking at this point, any news in the Commandos series would excite me.



#17 Sotha

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 12:54 AM

I think it might be like this:
1) stealth games are a bit niche market.
2) Thief4 was a failure
3) TDM exists for free
4) because of 1-3, it is a financial risk to try to make a new thief game. It is a small market (low gains even if successful), and someone has already failed due to demanding customer base (high risk of failure).

There is no incentive to take the risk. It is better to just make another version of (insert-usual-AAA-title-name-here). Maybe some small indie studio might go there...
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#18 Obsttorte

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 01:42 AM

thief 4 has some stupid cabinets you can hide in from the guards even if they are chasing you, the guards wont open the cabinets and find you because they can't. Even if you were in plain sight and in the light and about a foot away, just pop into that cabinet and the guards lose instant interest in you. It seems as soon as you enter a cabinet the guards alert state gets turned off. the cabinets are everywhere, just makes stealth pointless.

 

Plus you are not actually playing Garrett from thief 1, 2, 3.

It's been a while since I've last played Thief 4, but I am pretty sure that isn't correct. I remember guards looking inside the cabinets. Maybe you were playing on a low difficulty (I've only played the highest) or this is something that has gotten patched away later on.

 

However, I've played the game two or three times, so although I agree that it has its weeaknesses, it can't be that bad after all ;) It received a lot of criticism, but lots of the things criticised can be found among TDM fms either.

 

I think the main issue with it is that it was designed for a way to big customer size, as for whatever reason everything produced today needs to be AAA. Five years of development and a team of 100+ devs if I am not mistaken made the development surely rather expensive, and the sells simply didn't suffice to render it a financial success. A smaller team, a shorter development cycle and everything aimed at a smaller audience would have probably been the better approach.


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#19 some1stoleit

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 05:39 AM

No idea how Kalypso will handle a remake/new game. I'd be pretty hyped if the people behind Shadow Tactics Blade of the Shogun handled it, the improvements and smooth controls of that game make it difficult to go back to older Real Time Tactics games like Commandos. I've yet to beat one of them infact, I even tried playing Desperados Wanted Dead or Alive twice.

 

One hope I see of a new Thief is maybe a reboot that aims to copy the forumula the new Hitman games use, but even then I don't think the Hitman games are a huge financial success. The live service/open world trend the AAA industry is going towards will not be kind to a Thief game, let alone any stealth game. If the rights fell into the hands of a AA studio then maybe their's some hope it'll be decent.



#20 Obsttorte

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:00 AM


One hope I see of a new Thief is maybe a reboot that aims to copy the forumula the new Hitman games use

By the might of the Holy Builder, nooooooooooooooooo. :o


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#21 some1stoleit

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:48 AM

By the might of the Holy Builder, nooooooooooooooooo. :o

 

Online only stuff aside it's not bad. Bigger but less levels, stuff like contracts wouldn't fit in obviously. It's basically a way to preserve traditional big levels while pleasing the AAAs need for a live service, and keeping open world away from the game. But perhaps I should've said a chance over hope, I'd prefer the traditional way of delivering the game.



#22 Judith

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 06:56 AM

Big levels are often being made for bigness sake, to impress other people. I'd rather have smaller, recognizable space, but interesting to traverse in a few ways. What Hitman does with "mastering" the space and unlocking better spawn places or weapons is interesting, but it would basically require inventing new game types for TDM, with some heavy scripting. And I believe that's something most mappers don't have time or resources for.


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#23 chakkman

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 09:03 AM

It'll be hard for a "small indie team" to provide good graphics, good artwork, and missions the size which would do a Thief game justice. I can't even imagine something like TDM being created nowadays. 



#24 chakkman

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 09:04 AM

By the might of the Holy Builder, nooooooooooooooooo. :o

 

lol :D

 

Not sure about that either...



#25 Springheel

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 09:58 AM

The problem with T4 is the problem lots of designers and directors fall into when building on existing IP, and that's trying to make your product appeal to everyone, including people who weren't fans of the original.  

 

They'll throw some RPG elements in for the people who like RPGs, some slow-mo headshots for the people who like run and gun play, some mechanics to avoid the annoyance of having to actually hide for the people who don't like stealth, remove the uniqueness of the setting that could confuse new players, quest markers for the console players, etc, etc

 

When you try to appeal to everyone you wind up appealing to no one.  It's the One Game to Rule Them All syndrome that publishers are generally forced into because they need to make as many sales as possible.


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