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General 2.07 Feedback


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#1 SuaveSteve

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 09:42 PM

Thought we'd have a thread where everyone can chime in on this release since there doesn't seem to be an official thread.

 

Wow, guys. The performance is phenomenal. Was how occlusion culling works changed? I seem to be able to noclip all over the place without the FPS dipping much.

 

As for the shadow maps, I notice that they can end up very different in some spots:

 

Stencil: https://my.mixtape.moe/efdfbb.jpg

Maps: https://my.mixtape.moe/paqqmb.jpg

 

Stencil: https://my.mixtape.moe/pmznnc.jpg

Maps: https://my.mixtape.moe/wiyrij.jpg

 

Is the idea that maps will replace stencils?

 

With shadow maps, will larger more open spaces in missions be more feasible now?

 

How is anti-aliasing done now? Still rendering at higher resolution and scaling down?

 

Anyway, well done. The game feels so much more smooth now and this release seems very impressive.


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#2 nbohr1more

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 10:00 PM

Wow, guys. The performance is phenomenal. Was how occlusion culling works changed? I seem to be able to noclip all over the place without the FPS dipping much.

 

 

To my knowledge, occlusion hasn't been directly changed but visibility calcs have been optimized with AVX math.

 

Regarding noclip, we also made a code change so that when you go outside the map only the ambient world renders.

It makes noclip a much more viable tool for examining maps in-game.

 

How is anti-aliasing done now? Still rendering at higher resolution and scaling down?

 

We now create Frame Buffer Objects with MSAA attributes so native MSAA works as expected.

 

Is the idea that maps will replace stencils?

 

If we cannot solve contact hardening shadows and some of the performance gulfs inherent to Stencil Shadows, then

we will probably just drop them like the rest of the industry has (including the father of Quarternion math in game rendering, Eric Lengyel...).

 

As for the shadow maps, I notice that they can end up very different in some spots:

 

For areas where shadow maps have resolution artifacts, there are two workarounds:

 

1) Increase r_shadowMapSize

 

2) Decrease r_maxShadowMapLight so that smaller lights are forced to use Stencil Shadows.
 

 

Anyway, well done. The game feels so much more smooth now and this release seems very impressive.

 

 

Glad to see things have improved. You can thank Cabalistic, Stgatilov, and Duzenko for most of these improvements.

(I mostly did minor things, like fixing some render tools.)


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#3 stgatilov

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 11:07 AM

As for the shadow maps, I notice that they can end up very different in some spots:

That's inevitable for a completely different principle.

I'm very surprised that both implementations behave so similar to each other.

 

Is the idea that maps will replace stencils?

I guess no one can answer yet

Probably they will both be used (e.g. now stencil shadows are used in Maps case sometimes).
 

With shadow maps, will larger more open spaces in missions be more feasible now?

No.

At least current shadow mapping technique is unsuitable for large spaces. Stencil shadows do better.
 



#4 RPGista

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 05:02 PM

Yeah, I was mentioning this a few days ago. Im not a tech guy at all, and I have no actual understanding of the real work that went into the engine these past few versions, though I did follow the tackling of the big issues here in the forums with interest. I decided to catch up when my new laptop arrived and I was blown away by the culmination of the graphic improvements, the optimizations, the renderer overhauls... Those soft shadows are really sexy, the whole thing feels better. I know that there some other features being worked on that are also exciting, like volumetric lights for example. And above everything, it feels good to know that the game is being updated and is very much alive in the technical department. That to me seems very important, to be able to meet the expectations of newer generations of players and contributors. Terrific work by the guys, for sure.


Edited by RPGista, 21 February 2019 - 05:03 PM.


#5 AluminumHaste

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 06:15 PM

Stencil shadows will not work with no backface. Apparently shadow maps work differently.

 

Unless that's been changed, I just noticed the bed in a map has a shadow under it.

EDIT: I see, it's because someone has added a shadow texture to the bottom of the bed, so I was right lol.

 

EDIT 2: Yup

 

Stencil Shadows: jRgJoHV.png

 

Shadowmaps: bJI8oL5.png


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#6 Dragofer

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 06:20 AM

I didn't think I'd see my merchant ship within a harbour at 60 fps, but 2.07 made it happen (formerly 40 fps). Thank you for the excellent work.


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#7 chakkman

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 08:14 AM

Sorry for offtopic, but... from which mission is this picture in the 2.07 version announcement?

 

TheDarkMod-2018-05-25-23-38-03.jpg


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#8 Springheel

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 08:44 AM

That's a WIP map (I believe) from Spooks.


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#9 chakkman

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 08:55 AM

Thanks. It looks great really, nice detail.


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#10 Springheel

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 09:48 AM

Spooks is a master of lighting.


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#11 duzenko

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 01:27 PM

No.

At least current shadow mapping technique is unsuitable for large spaces. Stencil shadows do better.
 

AFAIK shadows aren't the main problem with the open spaces - it's the LOD system?

 

 

I didn't think I'd see my merchant ship within a harbour at 60 fps, but 2.07 made it happen (formerly 40 fps). Thank you for the excellent work.

Well it could have been 60 back then with some optimization effort.



#12 JackFarmer

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 05:33 AM

From HHI:

 

Attached File  HHI_performance_comparison.jpg   115.62KB   0 downloads

 

 

Can move the mouse everywhere I want under 2.07 - always receive 60 fps in this particular place.

 

I hereby award the guy(s) responsible for this with the new title "Premium Professional". This title cannot be delegated. :)

 

Thanks again for this!


Edited by JackFarmer, 01 March 2019 - 05:38 AM.

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#13 chakkman

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 06:39 AM

Wished i would get such FPS improvements here.  :unsure:



#14 Judith

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 06:41 AM

That's rather up to mapper. There's nothing in that view that would justify over 4k drawcalls and 100k shadows.


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#15 AluminumHaste

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 07:53 AM

Yeah that does seem quite high.

BTW Jack, what FOV are you using?


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#16 duzenko

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 08:44 AM

That's rather up to mapper. There's nothing in that view that would justify over 4k drawcalls and 100k shadows.

Used to be much higher - took a lot of effort to reach this level.



#17 Judith

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 08:47 AM

:blink:  It looks like Thief 2 in terms of complexity. Did you use LOD for models/shadows, and func_portal to control visportals better?



#18 AluminumHaste

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 09:52 AM

:blink:  It looks like Thief 2 in terms of complexity. Did you use LOD for models/shadows, and func_portal to control visportals better?

 

Oh, it's the stairwell.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#19 duzenko

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 03:15 PM

:blink:  It looks like Thief 2 in terms of complexity. Did you use LOD for models/shadows, and func_portal to control visportals better?

There's a lot of stuff occluded by those walls in the middle. It's a very big room (I did suggest to rework the architecture but I guess the author spent too much time on it already)



#20 lowenz

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 02:27 PM

Spooks is a master of lighting.

Nomen Omen :D


Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#21 Spooks

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 03:40 PM

Hey I've got a question pertaining to something I've only noticed with 2.07, not sure if it's always been like this but I think it has.

 

Usually, you can easily overwrite materials in your FM. For an example, let's say the mod has a textures/cobblestone material, you can make your own image maps and in your own myfm/materials/my_mats.mtr file you can define textures/cobblestone with an updated specular/diffuse, what have you. I have done this before without a problem.

 

On 2.07 however I've noticed that when loading the FM, the material will still look like the default one. In my real case, to leave the example aside, I've updated a material's diffuse map and it visibly stays the default. Only when I type ReloadDecls in the console do all the surfaces in the game update to the custom diffuse map for the material.

 

Does any dev know of something in 2.07 that might've caused this? Should I file a report? Like I said, I'm not sure but I'm fairly certain ReloadDecls was not needed in previous versions of TDM.


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#22 nbohr1more

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 04:32 PM

Please file a report. This probably explains why I wasn't seeing changes when creating an overwrite material for grayman.


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#23 nbohr1more

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 03:16 PM

Hey I've got a question pertaining to something I've only noticed with 2.07, not sure if it's always been like this but I think it has.

 

Usually, you can easily overwrite materials in your FM. For an example, let's say the mod has a textures/cobblestone material, you can make your own image maps and in your own myfm/materials/my_mats.mtr file you can define textures/cobblestone with an updated specular/diffuse, what have you. I have done this before without a problem.

 

On 2.07 however I've noticed that when loading the FM, the material will still look like the default one. In my real case, to leave the example aside, I've updated a material's diffuse map and it visibly stays the default. Only when I type ReloadDecls in the console do all the surfaces in the game update to the custom diffuse map for the material.

 

Does any dev know of something in 2.07 that might've caused this? Should I file a report? Like I said, I'm not sure but I'm fairly certain ReloadDecls was not needed in previous versions of TDM.

 

By the way. Does this happen in the 2.07 Hotfix beta?

 

I've made some noise about this issue in the dev forums since I consider this to be a core functionality.


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#24 Lex

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 03:17 PM

I have been away for a while and I must say that the new shadows are awesome!

 

But - is it ok that maps cause massive FPS drop for me, unlike stencil shadows? Do I get it right that maps' shadows are intended to be more good-looking than stencil? I play on gtx750.



#25 Judith

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 01:48 AM

Shadow maps use GPU resources more, while stencil shadows use CPU resources more. In both cases, when utilization goes up to 100%, the framerate goes down. Biggest culprits for GPU use are postprocessing, high resolution (both shadowmap and game), AA, and soft shadow quality in particular. On systems with modern CPUs stencil shadows seem to be better solution as shadow maps can bring down even some current mid-range cards, like gtx 1060.


Edited by Judith, 28 March 2019 - 01:48 AM.

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