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Demigod

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What's important to me is what sounds good, not what is technically difficult. And I reiterate: most music - of all types - is shit. ^_^

 

I agree, and I think the reason is related to why the majority of video games are shit. Important decisions are not made by the artists who create such things but rather by a boardroom full of suits who are looking at the bottom line and nothing else, who get paid a lot of money to worry about only the bottom line.

 

Take modern movies for example, or television. Ever wonder why you see the same movie made, over and over and over and over again? The 400th edition of the "bad news bears" is out again with Billy Bob Thornton. For those with the pleasure of not knowing who the Bears are, they are an American cinema tradition, a simplistic tale of a crappy little league baseball team thats poor, outcast, from the wrong side of town. But this team turns it all around, with the right attitude and the willingness to sidestep rules (i.e. cheat) lo and behold the Bears emerge triumphant at the end of the movie!

 

Of course, they have always emerged triumphant, at the end of the movie, in fact the fucking story hasnt changed since I watched the first goddamn version of the movie 20 years ago. Its an important American myth, the underdog struggling against the status quo and emerging triumphant due to pluck, personal responsibility, and yanking hard on one's own bootstraps.

 

Why do we keep seeing the same story told over and over? I believe in part its because somewhere in Gollywood, a room of managers and money people decided that "Dang, this scripts been around for about 20 years! It must work, other wise why would it have been around this long?" It seems a safe bet, and when short term profits, pleasing stockholders, and keeping your job are your primary concerns safe bets are the way to go. Art under capitalism tends to become a commodity, like anything else. When something becomes a commodity, free wheeling notions like artisitic integrity, fuck even the notion of the product being art, go out the window.

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The problem also lies with the mainstream audience that keeps forking over cash to see the same shit over and over like sheepish drones.

 

I was hoping that the "slump" that the box office was encountering was going to continue hard, and give those corporate fat cats a message that the same old rehashed shit is now becoming worthless even to your simple minded mainstream audience.

Loose BOWELS are the first sign of THE CHOLERA MORBUS!
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Erm, classical musicians don't like Yngwie Malmsteen because it's absolute crap which has none of the intellectual nor soulful depth of baroque or classical music, but all of the percieved pomp and extravagance. He composes using ridiculously cheesy stereotypes idioms and expects it to have musical weight merely by standing in front of a 90-piece symphony orchestra with his strat.

 

Fuck off, give me Concierto d'Aranjuez or Fantasia para un Gentilhombre any day. At least Rodrigo knew what he was doing and made music that was not only intelligent and beautiful, but also stiflingly popular (particularly Aranjuez).

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The problem also lies with the mainstream audience that keeps forking over cash to see the same shit over and over like sheepish drones.

 

I was hoping that the "slump" that the box office was encountering was going to continue hard, and give those corporate fat cats a message that the same old rehashed shit is now becoming worthless even to your simple minded mainstream audience.

 

 

True. I dont want to tell anyone what to watch,but I do believe that in a world where art was allowed to flourish for its own sake, not someone's pocketbook, that the drivel that passes for entertainment would dry up and blow away. Part of the problem is that, just like in video games, the consumers standards erode as the product erodes. If a person eats steak all day long, when you sneak a hot dog on the plate they go nuts. When they have been eating bologna all day long, a hot dog doesnt generate a big fuss.

 

We have all been gaming for years, we have known good games and bad, therefore we have a better context within which to determine if a game is good or not. True, its all subjective, but our subjectivity is much broader than that of a gamer who grew up on HALO and little else.

 

So when you say to a younger gamer, or movie goer, "That sucks!", not only are they going to disagree with you from an aesthetic point of view but any such evaluations that they make are going to be made within a completely different context of what defines a good game. Specifically relating to gaming, their context never had a period of time where anything went, like we did, when small studios like LGS could turn out games that broke the rules and the community of game creators and players was pretty close knit, at least more so than today. So when we judge a game, we are including the period when things were radically different in our context. For the coming consumers of entertainment, there is no such period by which to judge these things.

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I dont want to tell anyone what to watch,but I do believe that in a world where art was allowed to flourish for its own sake, not someone's pocketbook, that the drivel that passes for entertainment would dry up and blow away.

 

How do you suggest that be accomplished? Making a movie/video-game/etc is often an expensive process. You say rich fatcats should be done away with, but what would be a good way to fund art without them? At least with the current model people have a choice about which art to fork over their hard-earned cash to support.

 

Admittedly, I think that most players have poor taste. For example, I hate how most competitive FPS gamers prefer mindless reflex battles to strategy; I prefer to be killed by a camper any day rather than some twich-happy gamer jumping around like an olympic gymnist. ...but hey, if that sort of thing entertains so many people it can't be all bad. Just realize that during Shakespear's time, he was thought to be pandering to the penny-knaves, and producing mindless entertaining crap that catered to mass-markets rather than intellectual high-brow poetry and art. And now we see him entirely differently. Maybe a hundred years from now, Counterstrike and Halo will be seen the way Shakespear is. *shudder* Oh well... If that's the price to pay for having so many games to choose from (even if they're all clones of eachother), then so be it. So long as we don't outlaw people from writing their own games, I'll be happy.

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Nonsense. Most common people didn't have the opportunity to hear anything other than local yokels playing folk tunes. . Also, most of the greatest 'classical' music from various eras was either klaviercentric, and they were expensive instruments, or for skilled ensembles or orchestras The only music people had access to was music they played themselves, and they mostly wouldn't have had the skill to play the classics even if they could have affored the sheet music - in fact, most of them wouldn't have learned to read music at all, they'd have learned to play by ear from their parents. THey certainlty couldn't afford to go to concerts.

Those are the reasons why folk music was more popular, not because people heard the classics and didn't like them, but because folk was all they had.

 

Local yokel folk music is far more pleasant to listen to for most people than the endless droning of Bach, true music comes from the heart, not some wanker with a well tempered clavier producing a pretentious, boring crap. Even now, most common people do have the opportunity to hear all kinds of classical music - it is all there in any record shop, they are usually the CDs up the back with lots of dust on them. There is no reason to think that sensible people who aren't rich inbred idiots would find anything of value in pompous crap like Bach or Handel, and they had plenty of chances to hear it when they went to church. I can only imagine how many more parishoners churches might have attracted if that vile noise wasn't being churned out all the time.

 

Well, of course you're not going to admit it  :rolleyes:

Everyone I knew who listened to that rubbish did it to be cool and annoy people - that's all it's good for. Then those people grew up.

 

That might be true for everyone you knew oDDity, but it never made me look cool, since I didn't really advertise what sort of music I listened to, and I never played it around other people. In fact, most people thought I listened to classical music when I was a teenager. I listen to metal because I enjoy it, pure and simple, the same way you enjoy Classical music, even though most people would think you listen to it so you can pretend you are sophisticated and intellectual, which is a sign of immaturity and insecurity on your part.

 

I don't like Mozart so I'm not in a position to argue with you, but there are millions of people who would.

I was just listening to Betthoven's 9th symphony this morning - an hour and ten minutes of pure excellence. Are you trying to tell me with a straight face than any Metal or Thrash jingle can even be put in the same league with that?

 

 

Millions of people? Maybe millions of Mozart CDs and records gathering dust, because people bought them under the assumption that Mozart was "one of the great composers", only to find out he was a fool who produced senseless garbage...

 

Beethoven only ever made one good piece of music: the first ten minutes of the 9th symphony. The rest is boring, horrible rubbish. The sound of nails scraping across a blackboard is in the same league as that. An hour of unspeakable suffering more like it. You can really tell how deaf he was when he wrote it, although the stuff he wrote when he could hear was no better.

 

And I don't just listen to any metal, and I hate Thrash - Thrash is shit. I listen to mainly progressive technical metal, which is the superior form of heavy metal (like most classical music, technical metal is also seen as pretentious boring crap by most metal enthusiasts, so again my musical taste put me in a minority - but I listen to it because I like it, not because of what other people think of it)...

 

 

I will use an analogy based on alcohol:

 

Classical music is like a fine vintage wine that has been cellared for 100 years. People would pay thousands of dollars to have one in their cellar, but no-one would ever seriously contemplate drinking it, because they know it turned to vinegar a long time ago. They only want it for the perceived prestige they think it brings (most sensible people think anyone who spends that much on wine that has passed it's use-by date is either an idiot, or someone who plans on using it to con some rich moronic twat out of his money). Similarly, most people go to a Classical music recital to be seen there by all the other rich twats, so that they can ponce around masturbating each other's egos and saying how sophisticated they all are, not because they genuinely enjoy the experience. Everyone else avoids it because it is an expensive, indulgent waste of time that leaves a sour taste in their mouth.

 

Pop music is like cheap American beer - if you drink enough of it, it will get you pissed, but it has no real quality about it, and you would stop drinking it if you decided to develop some level individuality...

 

Jazz is like a nice two year old Shiraz, or a nice bottle of Tawny Port - nice depth, character and taste, and is actually drinkable, unlike the expensive 100 year old vinegar.

 

Progressive/Technical/Death Metal is like drinking a nice ten year old bottle of double malt whiskey. The first time you try it, it just tastes like crap, and burns your mouth and throat, but once you get used to it, you start to appreciate the finer subtleties and the care that has gone into it, and you might even start to enjoy it. Similarly, Metal sounds like noisy static the first few times you hear it, but after a while, you begin to appreciate the depth, feeling and skill that goes into it.

 

Folk music is like a good home brewed beer - a bit rough sometimes, but it tastes great and gets you feeling warm and fuzzy nice and quickly, and is just plain fun.

 

Thrash metal and eghties speed metal is like home distilled ethanol - harsh as fuck without any underlying character, and you would only listen to it if there was nothing else around, and you didn't want to abstain.

Edited by obscurus
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I'm only interested in arguing with people who believe what they're saying.

You're obvosuly just talking crap in order to be argumentative, and you're not even capable of being subtle about it.

'endless droning of bach who produced pretentious boring crap..you have to be a rich inbred idiot to like it..etc'

'beethoven only wrote one good piece of music..'

I'm not replying to that. It's like someone trying to argue that 2+2=5 and expecting to get a reasoned reply

You're obviosuly only doing it to get attention...*yawns*

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Gildoran :How do you suggest that be accomplished? Making a movie/video-game/etc is often an expensive process. You say rich fatcats should be done away with, but what would be a good way to fund art without them? At least with the current model people have a choice about which art to fork over their hard-earned cash to support.

 

For one, I never suggested anything, I was merely diagnosing the problem. Sure creating these things can be expensive, but how much of that expense is added on to actual production and distribution costs? How much of the funding goes to the art and the artists, how much goes to the shareholders and officers of Corporation, Inc.? And spare me the sermons about "choice", the vast majority of choices that we have to pick from consist of the Coke vs. Pepsi variety, in other words no choice at all. With the current model, people fork over their hard earned cash for shit over which the artist and the consumer have little say, while important decisions go down in boardrooms. Some choice.

 

 

Gildoran: Admittedly, I think that most players have poor taste. For example, I hate how most competitive FPS gamers prefer mindless reflex battles to strategy; I prefer to be killed by a camper any day rather than some twich-happy gamer jumping around like an olympic gymnist. ...but hey, if that sort of thing entertains so many people it can't be all bad. Just realize that during Shakespear's time, he was thought to be pandering to the penny-knaves, and producing mindless entertaining crap that catered to mass-markets rather than intellectual high-brow poetry and art. And now we see him entirely differently. Maybe a hundred years from now, Counterstrike and Halo will be seen the way Shakespear is. *shudder*

 

But its impossible to really compare Shakespeare, or his historical period, with the current day. What you say is true about his work, he was criticised as being low brow, although I think a lot of the criticism came from religious authorities who viewed theater, especially public theater, as being influenced by the Hooved One. (Dont quote me on that last bit, Im no Shakespeare expert.) But although Shakespeare continues to be influential, he could never dream of the level of influence that a gigantic conglomerate like MGM enjoys. They have control over content, production, and distribution, they bully artists and consumers, buy politicians and pay for lobby groups to advance their interests.

 

At least a chunk of Shakespeares popularity can be attributed to the quality of his art, for whatever reasons people loved his work and still do, so he survives. Consumers of art through the centuries have said "This stuff is good, and I want to see it again." Thats not the total story, but its a part of it.

 

Today, in the mass entertainment machine, all you need is a pretty face to sell album covers, you neednt be able to sing even, or act, or whatever, and you are suddenly a "SUPERSTAR", the supposed choice of millions of consumers. This is one of the reasons the recording industry concentrates so much of its influence on pre-teen to late teen/early twenty somethings, the most impressionable age groups where strong in-group identity makes it harder for an individual to resist popular trends. They know that once people leave this age group, they are far less likely to pay for the same re-hashed horseshit over and over again.

 

Gildoran: Oh well... If that's the price to pay for having so many games to choose from (even if they're all clones of eachother), then so be it. So long as we don't outlaw people from writing their own games, I'll be happy.

 

So we have a wide open spectrum of choice, as long as our choices consist of essentially the same product? Sounds like Coke v. Pepsi again. As to outlawing people making games, until the community is able to produce its own editor with no strings attached, that remains a very real possibility.

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I'm only interested in arguing with people who believe what they're saying.

You're obvosuly just talking crap in order to be argumentative, and you're not even capable of being subtle about it.

'endless droning of bach who produced pretentious boring crap..you have to be a rich inbred idiot to like it..etc'

'beethoven only wrote one good piece of music..'

I'm not replying to that. It's like someone trying to argue that 2+2=5 and expecting to get a reasoned reply

You're obviosuly only doing it to get attention...*yawns*

 

 

And you believe what you are saying? I suppose you made your assertions about classical music for any other reason than to incite an inflammatory response?

 

When someone says "I like classical music" and leaves it at that, that is fine, I have no argument with that. But when someone says "the music I like is superior to the music you like, and you are childish for liking any music different to the music I like", I immediatly suspect that that person is saying it because they think that it makes them look superior, and naturally one should show you how preposterous and immature that stament is by making equally preposterous statements about the music you like (although I didn't exagerate at all when I said I can't stand listening to the majority of classical music - I just don't enjoy it). The fact is you have no response because you have now realised how ridiculous your own "argument" was, and cannot bring yourself to admit it.

 

The simple fact is, there is no "pinnacle" of music, music is 100% subjective, whether you prefer one form over another is a matter of preference, and there is no objective measure by which anyone can claim that what they like makes it better than what someone else likes. The only objective things that can be measured in music are 1 - popularity, 2 - level of complexity and 3 - technical difficulty for performance. Since none of these factors will affect any individual's enjoyment of music per se, they cannot be used to formulate an opinion as to whether or not one musical form is better than another, since the whole point of music is to create a sound that is pleasing to listen to, and that will vary wildy from person to person.

 

If you start an unreasoned argument oDDity, you can only expect a corresponding reply :)

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I immediatly suspect that that person is saying it because they think that it makes them look superior, and naturally one should show you how preposterous and immature that stament is...

Maybe I misunderstood something, but Obscurus, just a few posts ago you made those music-to-alcohol analogies ("I will use an analogy based on alcohol:"), and other remarks.

 

Obscurus wrote: The rest is boring, horrible rubbish...The sound of nails scraping across a blackboard ... Thrash is sh*t...Pop music is like cheap American beer...etc.

By your very descriptions of classical, pop music, etc. and the words you used you're implying that those who listen to them are inferior. So, by using your own criteria, are you trying to make yourself look superior?

 

It just seemed weird you were saying this.

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Maybe I misunderstood something, but Obscurus, just a few posts ago you made those music-to-alcohol analogies ("I will use an analogy based on alcohol:"), and other remarks.

By your very descriptions of classical, pop music, etc. and the words you used you're implying that those who listen to them are inferior.  So, by using your own criteria, are you trying to make yourself look superior?

 

It just seemed weird you were saying this.

 

 

That was exactly what oDDity was doing, I was simply holding up a mirror to his remarks by making equally stupid comments, and using the same specious reasoning to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to claim that one form of music is better than another. I actually don't care what music anyone else listens to, but if oDDity(or anyone else) feels free to deride someone elses musical preferences based on spurious arguments, why can't I?

 

I really don't feel superior for listening to the music I do (I actually have quite broad musical tastes, in spite of what my previous posts would suggest), but I think you can see how a person comes off as an arrogant cock when they start spouting off... By using the same lines of logic that people frequently use to deride music they personally don't like (eg metal) to deride other styles of music, hopefully I have shown that it is a stupid, pointless excercise. If you like one form of music or art over another, feel free to say so, but don't pretend that your preference makes you better than anyone else....

 

And I was kinda just playing the devils advocate to a degree for the sake of provoking a response, I admit ;)

 

OK I'll stop now so we can get back on topic... What was it again?

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Ahh, gotchya ;) Yeah, I wouldn't be too concerned with oDDity's comments when he words things that way. Don't focus too much on the "my opinion is the best and your's sucks" aspect of his posts; try to instead read through the lines and just hear the underlying thought of what he's trying to convey. Wording things in a non-tactful way and belittling your opinion is just his way.

 

Heh, I've grown to the point that it kind've makes me laugh in appreciation that he has the guts to speak his mind in such a non-tactful and unpopular way so much.

 

It's hard or impossible to change someone's mind on something; especially oDDity's when he talks about something he strongly believes in. Don't let it get to you.

 

That's just my advice. He's got a lot of knowledge on things. Look past what you may see as attacks and just hear what he has to say. Then take it or leave it, or comment on the underlying facts, rather than focus on the put-down sort of things.

 

He normally tells people to chill out with regards to his posts. I interpret this to mean he's just speaking his mind, albeit in a very opinionated fashion, and that we shouldn't take them so personally.

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Ahh yes... I think I got a bit carried away there anyway... I have a tendency to fight fire with fire when I should just ignore things... Plus I have been very bored lately, and I tend to vent on forums when that happens...

 

 

Now, back to Sin 2 - anyone think it will be any good?

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I enjoy arguing, but only with people who mean what they say, and you obviously didn't.

You should visit the lifelesspeople forums, DF, in the 'our oratory' section - bashing the religious and pointing out their complete lack of reason and logic in the most cynical and sarcastic way possible is my all time favouite hobby, I already have two warnings from the mods and I only joined last week.

Is anyone here religious BTW...?

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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I try to be patient with religious people and as long as they leave me alone I leave them alone. But inside, I have to admit that its hard to think of them as fully competent adults with rational minds. I know this is a prejudice and I have taken steps to address these attitudes but when I hear that simple horseshit start to tumble out of their mouths I ususally pigeonhole the individual in the "mystical minded" kook-ball list.

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I enjoy arguing, but only with people who mean what they say, and you obviously didn't.

 

Well, that isn't quite true, I did mean some of what I said, and I doubt you really meant all you said either if it comes to that... But I'm over it now, time for something new to bicker and argue over :)

 

You should visit the lifelesspeople forums, DF, in the 'our oratory' section - bashing the religious and pointing out their complete lack of reason and logic in the most cynical and sarcastic way possible is my all time favouite hobby, I already have two warnings from the mods and I only joined last week.

Is anyone here religious BTW...?

 

 

I too share your hobby for religion bashing - I am as atheistic as they come. Do you have a weblink, it sounds very amusing. My favourite is picking all the biblical passages that contradict teh other biblical passages. Or seeing just how seriously people take their religion - my favourite is to point out to religious people who work on the Sabath that the correct punishment is to stone them to death, and if they wouldn't mind waiting a moment while I get some rocks...

 

Got any gems oDDity?

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You should visit the lifelesspeople forums, DF, in the 'our oratory' section -  I already have two warnings from the mods and I only joined last week.

LOL! :)

A quick search on Google and voila! Here you go, Obscurus:

LifelessPeople - Our Oratory Thread

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THat forum is pretty cool though. You can get free webspace just by posting there.That's where I host my new site.

THere are some real bible bashers there though. Their idea of replying to a logical argument is either 'What I said is defifntely true -it says so in the bible' or 'I don't know why that happens, god works in mysterious ways'

I'm not an atheist, I'm an agnostic.

THe core of my aggument is that given the compete lack of evidence for whether there is a creator, the only thing to do is ignotre it until there is some reason to do otherwise. THere may be a creator, yes, but as it stands it's a very samll possibility, and nothing but a figment of the human imagination.

There are endless possibilites for how the universe came into being, and a creator is but one of them. Why anyone would latch onto that one as the definfte answer and then proceed to live their lives based on that guess, always astounds me.

I'm arguing with everyone there, atheists and theists alike, and the agnostics as well, mainly becasue they give the most reasonablke and logical arguments.

You know me -anyoine who doesn't agree with me 100% is my enemy.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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I like to say that I'm not the type of athiest who questions the existence of God, Im the kind of athiest who doesn't think to ask such questions. And God help you if you pull that "Its a matter of faith, not reason!" argument out in my presence. Many a Christian have I crucified on those very words.

 

Obscurus, at least in Europe the numbers of the faithful are declining sharply in the last several decades. Wasnt there a poll of Britains religious beliefs in which the majority penciled in "Jedi?" Trapped over here in this swamp of superstition, where I have seen school children work on projects studying genetically modified crops while simultaneously working on banners stating "Angels are watching over us!", its easy to lose sight of the fact that in the majority of industrialized nations religious belief has been fighting a losing battle. Of course, this is hardly worldwide, but its a start. :)

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I have a bad habit of using the term 'atheist' as a blanket term to cover both agnostics and atheists. I suppose I am technically an agnostic, since I am of the view that it is impossible to know ultimately why or how the universe exists, but I think that the likelihood of there being an intelligent creator is so vanishingly small that you might as well call me an atheist for the sake of simplicity. Personally I view questions such as "what is the meaning of life?" and "did god create the universe" as invalid questions, sort of like asking "what is one divided zero?". The english language lets you ask such a question, but it isn't a real question, since meaning itself is a human invention and does not apply to the universe, and you have to first invent the concept of god before you can start asking questions about whether some hypothetical entity did this or that...

 

I never cease to roll my eyes when the deeply religious view any question as to the validity of their beliefs as a test of their faith. They just don't seem to realise that doubt and uncertainty is a good thing.

 

On the last census here in Australia, I put "Sith Lord" in the box for religion... I could have gotten into trouble for that, since it is an offence to falsify a census, and that sort of thing can be construed that way...

Edited by obscurus
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I'm actually of the opinion that there cannot be a "penultimate" creator:

 

Time exists.

Creation is a temporal act.

Creation can only occur within the framework of time existing.

Therefore, the framework of time itself cannot have been subject to being created.

Since something exists without having been created, then it cannot be true that everything was created.

 

Anyway, the argument depends on a particular variety of understandings of time and might not be correct, I suppose, if time is fundamentally misunderstood in a big way. (But if time is fundamentally misunderstood in a big way, then the meaning of "creation" itself is also fundamentally misunderstood, so...)

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