Crossbow?

[oDDity]

Ha, perhaps I should drag out my ideas for the completely new loot system again..

[New Horizon]

Ha, perhaps I should drag out my ideas for the completely new loot system again..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How about not. Its been discussed.

[Domarius]

Hey guys, you conveniently ignored the fact that in a single mission, there is no point collecting loot, cause you can't spend it. So you need an arbitrary objective. This is Thief, it's about stealing for christ's sake.

 

I hate scavenging for that last 5% more than anyone I know, but I would never support not having a loot objective all together.

 

Not having a loot objective only makes sense in T3, where you get to spend it, so you can collect for your own needs and not some arbitrary objective.

[Ishtvan]

I thought you supported giving the FM authors all the options to craft their FM? If an author doesn't want a loot objective for a mission like "get the hell out of the city with people hunting for you," why stop them from doing that?

[Domarius]

If you read my post by itself, I can see how you'd see that, but I was aiming it at some of the people who posted earlier.

 

I'm actually arguing against anyone who wants to allow the player to disable loot objectives regardless of what the author set.

[New Horizon]

I'm actually arguing against anyone who wants to allow the player to disable loot objectives regardless of what the author set.

 

Exactamundo.

[obscurus]

Indeed. Let the FM author set the scene and objectives. If people don't like it, they can give the FM bad reviews and complain to the author for making a crap mission, but it should always be the FM author that defines the parameters of the game, not the player. If the FM author wants to give the player some leeway in loot requirements or whatever, that is fine, but if they don't, then the player should just accept the mission for what it is and either play it by the rules the FM author has set, or just leave it and play a different FM.

 

That might sound a bit totalitarian and fascist like, but it is the FM author who puts in the time and effort to make something, and if the player doesn't like it, then they should have to go to some effort to change what they don't like, rather than just clicking a checkbox for Lamer mode.

[New Horizon]

Indeed.  Let the FM author set the scene and objectives.  If people don't like it, they can give the FM bad reviews and complain to the author for making a crap mission, but it should always be the FM author that defines the parameters of the game, not the player.  If the FM author wants to give the player some leeway in loot requirements or whatever, that is fine, but if they don't, then the player should just accept the mission for what it is and either play it by the rules the FM author has set, or just leave it and play a different FM.

 

That might sound a bit totalitarian and fascist like, but it is the FM author who puts in the time and effort to make something, and if the player doesn't like it, then they should have to go to some effort to change what they don't like, rather than just clicking a checkbox for Lamer mode.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No worries, I don't think it's totalitarian or fascist. If a FM author balances a mission with certain goals in mind, then it should definately be played that way. The player shouldn't be able to change those parts of the mission...and you're totally right about giving the mission a bad rating if it's not balanced properly....otherwise, FM authors will just be able to slap any old thing together..without focus or purpose and will not learn from their mistakes.

[bob_arctor]

But your campaign will not have crap loot objectives presumably?

 

I just want something around about the level of "Hard" on the classic Thiefs (TDS not counting, I use the minimalist project & play as ghost or thief, no loot %; they screwed it up on default, very unfun hunts) as an option, so good Ai, reasonable loot count.

[New Horizon]

But your campaign will not have crap loot objectives presumably?

 

I just want something around about the level of "Hard" on the classic Thiefs (TDS not counting, I use the minimalist project & play as ghost or thief, no loot %; they screwed it up on default, very unfun hunts) as an option, so good Ai, reasonable loot count.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Our loot objectives will give you a real number as opposed to ...find x% of loot. That way, if you find 250 in gold/silver/gems, you don't know if there is $1000 in valuables left until after the mission.

 

I personally didn't like the percentage approach of TDS since it was constantly telling you how much loot was in the mission while you were in it. There was no reward for finding an extra piece of loot after you met your objectives...because you knew there was more lying around somewhere. Kind of made you feel like you were psychic or something.

[obscurus]

But your campaign will not have crap loot objectives presumably?

 

I just want something around about the level of "Hard" on the classic Thiefs (TDS not counting, I use the minimalist project & play as ghost or thief, no loot %; they screwed it up on default, very unfun hunts) as an option, so good Ai, reasonable loot count.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, when TDM is released and I start making maps, I will be doing my darndest to make some nicely balanced missions that favour ghosters. I hope to make them staggeringly hard to ironman your way through, and while I won't be expecting the player to find every damn coin and candlestick in the mission to complete it, I will be expecting the player to be very cautious and observant.

 

I will try to integrate most of the loot objectives into the story, so that if the player wants to go hunting for more loot they can, but there is no need for them to do so...

 

I hope I will be able to deliver on that, but, being a perfectionist who tends to overwork things to death, my releases might be few and far between. Hell, I still haven't released any of my Unreal maps

[FishFace]

I just hope there's not too much stuff hidden away on the Expert setting, forcing me to play "properly" TDP/MA 'Hard' setting was my usual setting, and sometimes the "Don't kill anyone" was just too difficult for me. I managed to do a couple of missions on Expert, and certainly enjoyed those ones (especially when they had the unKOable enemies) but it was too much for LotP, for example - when you had to try and break in through windows without being seen, and when you couldn't tell what the guard was doing! I prefered to shoot a broadhead through the window and have done with it.

[oDDity]

THat's why you shouldn't be allowed to play the game.

[New Horizon]

THat's why you shouldn't be allowed to play the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh good grief.

[oDDity]

Well, you think we're going to put all this effort into making a stealth game, just for people to run around playing it like an FPS?

Why don't you come over and shit on our doorsteps while you're at it.

Also know that if it were up to me there would be no broadhead arrows in the game, but I was yet again voted down by my esteemed collegues - apparently it's illegal to make a game without including some method of brutally murdering AI from the shadows...

[FishFace]

Yes, it's alright oDD - we know that there's only one way to do/think ANYTHING - oDD's way. I guess life must at least be simple for you, you don't have to worry about being wrong or about opinions or anything, there's just cold, hard facts

 

At the risk of sounding like I don't understand the way oDDity thinks, I'd say that actually it's possible to enjoy games in different ways, that I don't play Thief 'like an FPS' and that if I did, it would really be up to me as long as I did enjoy it. On the subject of which, there are enjoyable FPS, as long as you're not operating in a universe under Emperor oDD

[oDDity]

Well, look at it this way, there are a zillion and one FPS game out there in which to shoot people, so why waste a game like Thief or TDM by doing the same thing, when there are better gameplay alternatives.

[New Horizon]

Well, look at it this way, there are a zillion and one FPS game out there in which to shoot people, so why waste a game like Thief or TDM by doing the same thing, when there are  better gameplay alternatives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, and there are also more subtle ways to enforce them.

[obscurus]

Well yes, I would like to make the player prefer stealth over murder by making the killing of AI a very difficult feat to pull off and not get into a lot of trouble. Make stealth the path of least resistance and that is how most people will end up playing it. If you make killing the path of least rresistance, then people will play it like any other FPS. There is nothing wrong with FPS games per se, it is just that I and hopefully a few other people would like to play somthing with an emphasis on stealth and strategy over brute force.

[Gildoran]

For the campaign, have you thought about having your actions affect later missions, similar to how T3 kept track of paranoia levels? For example, if you go around killing people instead of sneaking, there's far more guards in later levels. Something like that could help provide an incentive not to run around sniping people with arrows.

 

Honestly, I rather like the idea of a cross-bow, since it might be easier to hide (more thematic), has a shorter range (helps prevent sniping), and takes much longer to reload (helps to prevent being used in an FPS manner), and can be quickly shot in a sticky situation. It just seems more theify to me. Of course, I like the idea of level designers being able to choose.

[obscurus]

I second that, although I am not sure how much work is required to keep track of things across missions like that. But it is a good way to provide a disincentive to going on killing sprees. And I like the idea of KOd AI regaining consciousness after a period of time - I think 15 min should be enough to make people think twice before pulling out the blackjack. You then have to think about whether or not it is worth having the KOd AI waking up and alerting all the other guards to the fact that someone just whacked them, or if it is better to just find a way to slip past them unnoticed...

[oDDity]

Nah, guards waking up aftera KO was another one of my plans that was voted down I'm afraid. There's no point bringing it up :/

[FishFace]

I did say, oDD, that I don't play it like "any other FPS," I play it stealthily - dispatching guards from range if I have to. I never go on rampages, and it is rare that a guard will be alerted to my presence. Putting that aside, I can STILL play Thief however I want to.

 

I favour a Thief game that makes the stealthy and bloody options quite close in difficulty. As obscurus said, people take the path of least resistance, unless they're trying to do something specific. Still, I think it should be possible to play to any degree of stealth or violence that the player in question wishes - as long as they're all equally difficult or if anything, violence is a bit more tricky, then the gameplay will still be good.

[oDDity]

WHat is it with gamers and their endless unquenchable lust for cyberblood?

So much so, that a game has to include the opportunity and weaponry for brutally murdering everyone, or it isn't any good.

Not me. I welcome a game where you're not given the lethal arsenal with which to gratuitously kill everyone in sight.

[bob_arctor]

Well come on! The odd sniping of a pesky guard is fun! You pay for it for sure, so may have to jump in the moat, but it's part of Thief really. I agree that in a way a fast shooting slow reloading short range crossbow is better, as it would make sniping hard, but anyhow if you muck it up on classic Thief and the arrow hits stone the guard is alerted and cannot be 1 shot killed.