Crossbow?

[New Horizon]

WHat is it with gamers and their endless unquenchable  lust for cyberblood?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think it keeps some people from seeking that quench in real life. Not speaking for myself since I don't play FPS games in any real capacity. Don't really care for them.

[Hylix Ulyx]

I think it keeps some people from seeking that quench in real life.

 

That's it entirely.

[obscurus]

Yes, but I would like a game where I can quench my kleptomaniacal tendencies quite separately to my homicidal tendencies. If I want to go on a killing spree, I usually play UT or some other deathmatch based game. I would like to play a game that is just about sneaking around and stealing shit without violence being necessary. Can someone please make one?

[Hylix Ulyx]

Then when you play Thief, don't kill anyone.

 

The beauty of the Thief games is that if you took the sword and broadhead arrows out of the game, it would still be possible to play the game all the way through.

 

You don't need to kill anyone in the Thief games to successfully complete the series...at the same time, if you want to, you can.

 

Beautiful.

Edited August 17, 2005 by Hylix Ulyx

[New Horizon]

Yes, but I would like a game where I can quench my kleptomaniacal tendencies quite separately to my homicidal tendencies.  If I want to go on a killing spree, I usually play UT or some other deathmatch based game.  I would like to play a game that is just about sneaking around and stealing shit without violence being necessary.  Can someone please make one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that's the point we're making here. Violence doesn't have to be necessary..but pacifism shouldn't be enforced. Make a choice and live with the consequences.

[FishFace]

WHat is it with gamers and their endless unquenchable lust for cyberblood?

So much so, that a game has to include the opportunity and weaponry for brutally murdering everyone, or it isn't any good.

 

Thief has always been about freedom. You are able to play it your way, I am able to play it my way. Since my way isn't even a brutal murdering rampage (as I have said... twice) you shouldn't have a problem with it, but even if it was you shouldn't, because it doesn't actually affect the way you play the game.

 

As the others have said, as long as neither violence nor pacifism is forced upon anyone, you can do what you like. As I have said, I want a punishment for violence, because it shouldn't be the easiest path. As you have ignored what everyone said and harped on about brutally murdering everyone, I might as well shut up.

 

The beauty of the Thief games is that if you took the sword and broadhead arrows out of the game, it would still be possible to play the game all the way through.

 

Exactly. And likewise, they were still useful implements. Limited usefulness, but nonetheless, they had their worth.

[oDDity]

I think it keeps some people from seeking that quench in real life.  Not speaking for myself since I don't play FPS games in any real capacity.  Don't really care for them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right. I doubt that would stand up to any scrutiny. As if 25 years ago everyone was a drooling maniac and since the invention of the FPS, the violent crime rate has dropped...hmmm. Some would say the exact opposite, and that vilolent game encourage kids to be violent in real life.

THe point is not that you can play the game without killing, the point is that you're given a full arsenal of weapons, the purpose of which is killing. Can't anyone imagine a game where they don't have any weapons to kill people with? Would it really be so terrible to be forced to use your reflexes, agility and wits to escape from situations rather than fight?

FPS games don't give you any choice. You shoot things and that's that. They don't have to include an alternate playstyle, so why should a stealth game like this have to include the alternate playstyle of murdering everyone?

No, dedicating a game entirely to stealth will result in a better game than trying to balance everything with an alternate FPS playstyle.

[FishFace]

Because Thief is about choice do you bust the main door, grapple up to an open window or take the servants' entrance? Do you dispatch him with the blackjack, with an arrow or do you leave him? Do you take the stairs up or do you take the elevator? Each method of everything has different challenges that are fun in different ways and for different people. Just because an FPS offers no choice about anything - you must shoot everyone, you must go down this hallway, you must detonate this bomb - doesn't mean thief has to be just as bad. You go along saying that FPS games suck, and then you say because it doesn't do something, Thief doesn't need it?! FPS games don't have hammer haunts - hell, Thief doesn't need 'em!

 

By all means make it impossible to go on a rampage, but cutting off the ability snipe someone from afar? What's the point? Thief doesn't become a shooter just because you can kill people. By all means, make it difficult to snipe people - it's more satisfying than ever if you execute such a shot. The thing is, killing people doesn't have to be dull and more importantly, doesn't have to be unstealthy. Killing and stealth can coexist and for me make for the most fun. Why are you trying to deny my fun when I'm not trying to deny yours?

[oDDity]

I'm not trying to derive you of fun, no one will force you to play the game.

I can't see what's so hilarious about pretending to kill people.

[New Horizon]

I'm not trying to derive you of fun, no one will force you to play the game.

I can't see what's so hilarious about pretending to kill people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well oDD, that's just where some people differ. For some, it's exciting to act out the darker side of humanity..without the real life consequences..and you and I both know that there does exist such a darkness within us all, regardless of how we may pontificate on the ethics of such an existance.

 

It's human nature to break the rules. Perhaps this is easier for me to understand because of my background. As an actor, I'm required to dredge up things on stage that are completely out of character for me. I've played a murderer before and on the opposite end of the spectrum I've played a priest. I didn't have to become a killer or a saint to play either of those roles but I did have to think like them. Depending on a persons point of view/ state of mind...anything can be rationalized.

 

To make a long story short. The goal of future FM's will be stealth over violence. People...being people...will sometimes act out and take the latter approach. It doesn't make the game any less a stealth game.

[Gildoran]

Right. I doubt that would stand up to any scrutiny. As if 25 years ago everyone was a drooling maniac and since the invention of the FPS, the violent crime rate has dropped...hmmm. Some would say the exact opposite, and that vilolent game encourage kids to be violent in real life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, crime-rates (at least in America) have been decreasing as videogames have gotten more violent. Of course, whether or not they're related is debatable.

 

Surely the FM designer can choose whether or not to include a sword/bow/etc in their mission, so couldn't somebody make ODDity's non-violent dream-FM with the planned version of TDM? Actually, I rather like the idea of making it a complete pain to kill anybody, especially for city missions where it doesn't make sense for players to be able to go on killing sprees. But as long as it's up to the FM designer, there'll probably be missions for any given taste, right?

[Springheel]

Can't anyone imagine a game where they don't have any weapons to kill people with?

 

Sims 2?

 

Of course, Sims doesn't have people with weapons trying to kill YOU.

[oDDity]

No one in Thief is trying to kill you if you don't get caught, and not getting caught is the point of the game, therefore, weapons are superfluous.

[New Horizon]

I can see this going on for a lot longer than seven pages....I do agree with you in theory though oDD, just not in execution.

[oDDity]

All I want is for people to play a stealth game stealthily. Handing them an arsenal of weapons before they even start is not compatible with that goal.

[FishFace]

And yet how many people played Thief on a rampage? Killing and stealth are not incompatible. Killing and not getting caught are not incompatible.

 

Oh, and if I didn't play the game, it wouldn't be very fun for me, would it oDD? So my point stands...

[Springheel]

This 'ghosting' tradition--that a thief can expect to get in and out of a well-guarded building without being seen--is ridiculous. It would never happen in real life, and can't even happen in Thief unless the FM author specifically designs the map to support it. Our AI are going to be much harder than earlier games--turning their heads, stopping arbitrarily, wandering randomly like real people do--so the player can expect to be seen. Any rational thief would therefore try to remove the guards from the picture--quietly, if possible--and be armed in the event that they are spotted or cornered.

[obscurus]

This 'ghosting' tradition--that a thief can expect to get in and out of a well-guarded building without being seen--is ridiculous.  It would never happen in real life, and can't even happen in Thief unless the FM author specifically designs the map to support it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No, it isn't ridiculous, and it does happen in real life, more often than you might think. Real life crime statistics show that more burglaries occur while the residents are home watching TV down one end of the house while the burgler rifles through the other end, than burglaries where the thief kills the occupants, or even burglaries where the occupants are not present. Commiting a robbery and getting caught has much less serious legal consequences than Felony Murder, and most successful thieves use their wits, stealth, cunning and use of disguises rather than brute force, because they know that if they get caught robbing someone, they will usually get away with a relatively lenient sentence, wheras a murder usually entails a fairly serious punishment, and also because murder is usually a very noisy activity that attracts attention. Most good theives can take things in plain sight using slight of hand, but that might be a bit hard to implement in a computer game...

 

But yes, the FM author has to tweak the map to favour a particular playstyle.

 

When I get around to mapping, I will be making maps for ghosters with lockpicks and other tools, but few if any weapons. The player can pick up weapons that AI have dropped and use them, but they will almost certainly get their arse kicked if they try to engage the enemy, and it will make it extremely hard to finish the mission if an AI is found dead or unconscious. And since I plan to limit the amount the player can carry, the player will have to choose between carrying more tools and weapons, or carrying more loot.

 

Choice is overrated. I prefer to see what I can do within fairly strict limitations by using my brain to get around difficult problems with a minimum of gadgetry and armoury, rather than resort to fantastic devices and weapons. Of course, this can be even more of a challenge in a game designed to be completed using cyber violence...

[oDDity]

I wish you were on the team voting in some of the decisions, and some of them may have went my way. As I say, this is the epicentre of the Thief Conservative Old Boys Club. I've long since given up wasting my time making any kind of suggestions at all.

I wanted elite city watch guards to be called into the map any time someone was found dead. This would make the rest of the game extremely difficult, since you wouldn't be able to swordfight these highly trained men without dying, they travel in pairs, it takes 5 arrows to kill them, and you only have a limited supply, and all elite guards carry both range and melee weapons. Kill 2 or 3 people and the map would be nearly impossible to complete.

It was voted down (of course)

Ghosting is not a nonsense. IF the Thief took a few more tools to help him break in and rob a place instead of a varitey of lethal weapons.

Also, the guards would be far less likely to kill him if he wasn't armed. Carrying a weapon ensures your death if caught, since the guards are bigger, stronger and better fighters than you.

The nonsense in THief is not ghosting, but the fact that you can kill someone and leave the body lying while everyone in the building gets on wth their normal routine, or tha you can blackjack half a dozen men without anyone noticing them missing.

Ghosting makes the most sense and is the most realistic playstyle.

I never liked the simplistic bloodthirsty nature of the guards in Thief, who can't wait to slaughter someone any time they hear the slighest noise. One of the things I dd like about TDS was the city watch arresting you instead of just killing you.

It's still mission over, but at least you're not dead.

Your loot totals could be counted up and if you have enough you can use it to bribe the judge)

[FishFace]

The nonsense in THief is not ghosting, but the fact that you can kill someone and leave the body lying while everyone in the building gets on wth their normal routine, or tha you can blackjack half a dozen men without anyone noticing them missing.

 

It's your job (and the rest of the team's) to make sure that I don't get away so easily. Don't get me wrong - I want to be "punished" for being untidy in my dispatches. If someone finds a dead body, I want a full house sweep, or something like it, and most if not all of the guards to be twitchy for the rest of the mission. If someone finds an unconscious body, it wouldn't be as serious, as it could've been an accident - that encourages you to use the blackjack, but if you knock someone out and they're found then perhaps someone fetches a bucket of water and wakes him up. After insisting he is fine he gets back to patrol - therefore it is a trade-off between killing and KOing.

 

In the setting of Thief, ghosting is less realistic than in real life. It's more like robbing a palace and trying to make it as hard as possible for yourself. If you are able to distract or dispose of the guards, you are going to, because they're on the lookout and are patrolling the entire premesis - not watching TV together. However, that doesn't make ghosting impossible - I'm not going to object to there being the option of taking ghosting gear as opposed to weaponry - making you quieter and faster. In a game, you take on the role of the lead, therefore it makes sense that at least some element of your preferences are taken on by said lead. Just as a real Thief has to make choices on how to tackle a particular "mission," so should the player; it adds a thinking dimension and an immersive one, if you are making choices as you would have to in real life.

 

Making it impossible kill is restrictive. Making it risky to kill, and making your life difficult if you botch it is realistic and fun. When playing, I want to have to weigh up whether I'll be able to snipe that guard and remove his body before someone gets back, or whether to risk him seeing me and knocking him out - or whether to risk him coming up on me later on and leaving him where he is.

[Springheel]

Real life crime statistics show that more burglaries occur while the residents are home watching TV down one end of the house while the burgler rifles through the other end

 

A residence with a family of four is quite different than a "well-guarded building" with a dozen heavily armed guards on patrol.

 

Commiting a robbery and getting caught has much less serious legal consequences than Felony Murder

 

In modern society perhaps, but that doesn't mean much in a medieval-esque world.

 

I wanted elite city watch guards to be called into the map any time someone was found dead. This would make the rest of the game extremely difficult, since you wouldn't be able to swordfight these highly trained men without dying, they travel in pairs, it takes 5 arrows to kill them, and you only have a limited supply, and all elite guards carry both range and melee weapons. Kill 2 or 3 people and the map would be nearly impossible to complete.

It was voted down (of course)

 

It wasn't voted down. But it's map specific, so it's up to the FM author to do, not us.

 

but the fact that you can kill someone and leave the body lying while everyone in the building gets on wth their normal routine, or tha you can blackjack half a dozen men without anyone noticing them missing.

 

And these are exactly the things that we are trying to address.

 

Ghosting makes the most sense and is the most realistic playstyle.

 

If the map maker doesn't specifically design the map so you can ghost it, it wouldn't even be possible, so obviously it's pretty artificial.

 

Fishface: I agree with your entire post.

[bob_arctor]

I would prefer really good AI to rubbish Ai which we have to stealth past, ghost, so have limited vision and sound. Mind you I would like to sell my sword and arrows sometimes for more moss and water arrows.

[Hylix Ulyx]

I'm with that. It's an ideal way to balance the game, and it doesn't force me to carry around weapons I'm not going to use when I'd rather pawn them off for more stealthy tools.

Edited August 18, 2005 by Hylix Ulyx

[Hylix Ulyx]

To me, the allure of Thief is the sense of control:

 

Not only of the player character, but of the game world itself, and in the gameplay.

 

Every mission, I'm given the keen sense that I own the level, the whole gameworld:

 

If I want to, I can kill everyone, even the servants.

If I want to, I can slip in and out, with every valuable treasure, and none be the wiser.

If I want to, I can knock the whole lot of 'em unconcious, and none be the wiser.

 

Every device set up in the gameworld helped the player feel like their will be done.

 

There's voyeurism, theft, murder, embezzelment...all at the touch of a mouse button.

 

To say that video games, specifically thief, don't somehow quench the instinctual desire of the baserman, is denying the reason behind playing in the first place.

 

There's a reason game like GTA et al strike a chord, both with those who love the game, and those who revile it.

 

The former are comfortable with the catharsis, the latter fear it.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Edit: Sorry for posting twice in a row.

Edited August 18, 2005 by Hylix Ulyx

[oDDity]

It may not be possible to strictly ghost a mission of it's not designed that way, but it's certainly always possible to complete the map without killing anyone or KOing anyone.

I don't count distracting guards as antighosting, all ghostingmeans to be is not attacking anyone and not being seen.

 

Making it impossible kill is restrictive. Making it risky to kill, and making your life difficult if you botch it is realistic and fun. When playing, I want to have to weigh up whether I'll be able to snipe that guard and remove his body before someone gets back, or whether to risk him seeing me and knocking him out - or whether to risk him coming up on me later on and leaving him where he is.

You can't go fishing in the game. Is that restrictive? We didn't give you the tools to go fishing so you can't do it. I don't hear anyone complaining about that.

Why didn't we give you a fishing rod and implement fish?

- because this is a game about using stealth and thieving skills.

Why don't I want to give you weapons?

-for exactly the same reasons.

Why must killing people be an essential part of the game?

Why must you be given the tools to kill people with, or else feel restricted.

What is so special about the act of killing that makes it an essential requrement for every game?

There will be a billion and one things you can't do in this game, because you won't be given the necessary equipment to do it, so why start crying and claiming 'restriction!!!' about just one of them, if you weren't given the tools to kill people?

I want to know what singles out murder as special and a 'must have' in any game.

To say that video games, specifically thief, don't somehow quench the instinctual desire of the baserman, is denying the reason behind playing in the first place.

Speak for yourself. I play for the challenge and skill required. THe harder the better. It's no different to games like chess in my mind, just a different game board and rules.