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#176 Hylix Ulyx

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 08:34 AM

What precisely is the supreme objective of playing chess?

(C'mon, Odd, you know the answer)

Even chess is nothing more than a mathematical, grid based war simulation.

#177 Fingernail

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 08:48 AM

Oddity, while I agree with you in principle, and feel that it would be a worthy cause, I think you have to recognise the number of Thief fans who are looking to us to re-create all the fun they all had playing those games.

I just feel we can't afford to piss all over people who want to play it like they used to play Thief. At least not for the toolset.

Campaign, we're free to do whatever we want.

#178 New Horizon

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 09:01 AM

Hmmm.

Team 1 would prefer limited tools to work with so that it aids their preference of playstyle.

Team 2 doesn't want to be forced into any form of playstyle through limitation.

Both of these options are available to both Team 1 and Team 2 through the toolset.

Wow, isn't that neat?

It's up to the FM author to decide. Yes, that means that not every fan mission will meet one teams specific desires. Boo hoo.

I'm sorry if this sounds condescending folks, but this kind of selfish bickering really pisses me off. There is still a lot of work to be done and the toolset you get will be far more flexible than any of the previous editors, so I don't think we have to worry if we don't make it exactly how one team wants it over the other.

Please, learn how to share the sand box. Ok?

#179 New Horizon

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 09:03 AM

I just feel we can't afford to piss all over people who want to play it like they used to play Thief. At least not for the toolset.

Campaign, we're free to do whatever we want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Precisely Finger. I've been saying the exact same thing. The toolset is for the Thief Fans, not for our own self indulgence. The campaign is where we will cut loose.


@all
Now, lets take our dirty laundry back inside the forum. Shall we? ;)

#180 FishFace

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 09:04 AM

"because this is a game about using stealth and thieving skills."

So allow stealthy killing. Restrict unstealthy killing, as has been suggested (and, hopefully, as will be implemented) Fishing is not a viable method for stealthily thieving, whereas murder is. It doesn't matter why people want to kill - purely objectively, in some situations, killing may simply the best way forward.

Psychologically speaking, the reasons for wanting to kill have already been brought up - real-life restrictions, Hylix's point on control. The fact is, people want to be able to kill, and as long as it is stealthy, why disallow it? Because people won't play it the way you will? I can garuntee you that those who want to ghost will, and those who don't won't. And strictly speaking, ghosting precludes using distracting techniques (you're not allowed to make an AI deviate from his normal patrol) although I accept that looser rules are often used. Anyway, you still haven't explained why you want to stop other people enjoying the game.
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#181 oDDity

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 11:22 AM

You haven't explained why you can't enjoy the game without being able to kill people in it.
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#182 New Horizon

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 11:32 AM

Okay guys. Put it to rest. Not everyone is the same. Oh, such a shame really...diversity of personality and culture really sucks. ^_^

#183 Hylix Ulyx

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 11:33 AM

Options, baby, Options!!!

New Horizon has gone through great pains to assure the rest of us that Options are what we'll get with the toolset.

Nuff said.

#184 Domarius

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 11:47 AM

It's true though - for some people, killing is "just another option" rather than a last resort. Thief always struck me as a very realistic game, and I've always felt compelled to play it with the same moral judgment calls I might make in real life.

Initially it was out of vague suspicion that it would have an affect somewhere else in the game, but now even though I know some things won't, its just fun to play that way.

Easily the main reason I keep doing it is because it often ends up to be the most sucessful way to play. I get plenty of tense moments being caught and being chased, so the more I avoid, the better. There really is never a need for me to even risk sniping someone.

#185 bob_arctor

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 04:36 AM

Okay so maybe blackjack should have a weakness (I would like waking up, hence hide the bodies down the mineshaft >:) but it's not happening, fair enough) so you don't just use it the whole time (TDS especially. Why the dagger? I didn't use it on humans once).

So I think the blackjack should make some noise, as the person slumps and their sword hits the stone floor but unlike TDS this alerts the AI. Then you could buy Chloroform to take people out, they slump into your arms and you carry them without a gap.
Grab, hold, carry body to hiding place.

Quieter, but more expensive.
Pleaaaasseee. :)

#186 FishFace

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 04:45 AM

Hooray! Diversity of Opinion!

By the way, just as a sort of appeasement, oDD, I agree very much with Finger - that slicing off one set of fans just for the sake of the other half is silly and pointless when you can please both at the same time. If you were to release a campaign that prevented me from killing, then I'd play and enjoy it, as basically it is Thief's gameplay I like. I'd probably prefer a campaign that allowed killing in some form, but I don't actually have the virtual bloodlust. It's not that I find killing special in some way, or that I have a deep seated psychological desire for death (at any rate if I do I haven't found out about it yet... <_< ) It's the choice that is more important - if being able to fish were an easy to implement, widely supported method of completing thief that was balanced and fit in with the gameplay, then I'd support its inclusion. However, last time I checked... I don't think it was :)
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#187 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 05:11 AM

It's not stupid to slice off the set of violent fans. I'd enjoy slicing them off. In fact, I'd like to be there to see th look on their stupid faces when they realised they didn't get any weapons in TDM and were forced to sneak around in the shadows like some sort of stealth game.... 'This sucks!' they'd say ' I'm off to play UT' - and good riddance to them.
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#188 FishFace

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 06:08 AM

You've already got rid of them by punishing violence when it is possible. TDM will never be an FPS where you can go around killing everyone willy nilly - if it were, it would have failed. So actually, you don't need to get rid of the people who like Thief gameplay - you're already making violence more difficult than in Thief 1/2, right? The only question is over people who use stealthy violence. They're not going to be put off by being forced to be stealthy about their violence, but they will if they're prevented from choosing how to tackle the mission.

It's not "bloodthirsty FPS gamer" vs "ghosting Thief gamer." In other words, it's not all as clear cut as you make out.
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#189 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 07:15 AM

Simply making it harder to commit vilolence is not deterring it, it's making it more enjoyable for people, more of a challenge. That's just encouraging it.
No, the way to deter violence is not the way Thief tried to do it - 'Thou shalt not kill or game over', it's not to include an arsenal of weapons and then make it a challenge to use them.
The way to deter it is to not include weapons at all - that sends out an unambigious and correct message right from the start.
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#190 Springheel

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 08:09 AM

And instead of being hunted by warriors with swords, we can change them to concerned school counselors. If they catch the thief, they can sit him down and explain how it's not nice to take things that don't belong to you.
TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#191 duc

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 08:44 AM

A potential solution to the problem that Oddity raises would be 'karmic balance'; particular actions become ethical, unethical or neutral so that how you completed the mission affected things throughout the campaign and would give something to aim for overall. Oddity could ghost through aiming for a special ‘Saintly’ ending, conversely people who slaughtered all the servants in an early mission might find the number of guards and their alertness level doubled in the next because of the ‘serial killer’ on the loose. Gameplay becomes deeper as each death/knockout would count in the larger scheme of things e.g. you misbehaved before so you could try and step lightly to let the unrest calm down. Further to this idea the difficulty level could skew the weighting system making it possible to play on easy and not worry too much about each guard but on hard the consequences of killing have to be considered.

I am not arguing for limiting fan mission options, just suggesting a mechanism for the Dark Mod campaign that has more appeal to me than 'no weapons ever' or an arbitrary mission goal. I realise that its a pretty extreme thing to balance in terms of gameplay and probably too resource expensive - but I can day dream right? :D

Edited by duc, 19 August 2005 - 08:45 AM.


#192 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 09:05 AM

And instead of being hunted by warriors with swords, we can change them to concerned school counselors.  If they catch the thief, they can sit him down and explain how it's not nice to take things that don't belong to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


You're never hunted by anyone unless you're a useless fucker who doesn't know how to use stealth. You only get hunted when you make a mistake, and the point of the game is not to make any mistakes. We shouldn't include a whole secondary playstle for people who aren't any good at playing the game.
People whio are good at playing the game never need any weapons, and never get attacked.
If you are a useless fucker, then the best way to improve would be to play a stealth game with no weapons, and you'd improve your skills very quckily.
THis is not a stealth/FPS hybrid, it's a pure stealth game...or at least I want it to be, even if no one else does.
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#193 Springheel

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 11:08 AM

You're never hunted by anyone unless you're a useless fucker who doesn't know how to use stealth. You only get hunted when you make a mistake,


You keep bringing this up, ignoring the fact that our AI are going to be MUCH tougher than previous games. The very fact that they might turn around randomly means that your chance of being caught--EVEN IF YOU DON'T MAKE A MISTAKE--is much higher.

So yes, you WILL be hunted. And when you risk being chased by warriors with swords, having weapons of your own seems like a reasonable precaution.

Perhaps you'd like a "if you're spotted, you fail" type of game?
TDM Missions:   A Score to Settle   *   A Reputation to Uphold   *   A New Job   *    A Matter of Hours
 
Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#194 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:05 PM

Yes, I would. That would sort out the men from the boys.
You're saying our AI will be so good that it's impossible to get around wothout being seen and chased? Of course not, that's programing certain failure into the game.
THey may be better than in previous games, but if you're good, you still won't be caught.
So, logically speaking, the weapons in the game are only there for the benefit of the worst players. In other words, we're dumbing the game down towards the lowest common denominator, in order to attract a wider audience.
Remind you of anyone?
Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.
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#195 FishFace

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:14 PM

Firstly: what SH said.
Secondly: you're forever saying that an FPS is just about spraying bullets at everything that moves. If, by increasing the difficult, this is rendered impossible, then the gamers upon whom you lay so much contempt will surely not play because it will be too difficult for their miniscule brains to overcome. You see, it is possible to balance the game so as to lay a tumult of guards upon your deserving head if you so much as think about killing someone in the presence of another, but simultaneously allow the kill to take place if said buddy has gone for a pee. That requires planning and patience that your average dumbass is not capable of. It also requires that you make no mistakes.

As for what you say about 'rewarding' mistakes. Now, near misses have always been fun in Thief games, but no-one ever actively sought them out. Guards should be tough enough that it is a challenge for you to overcome them when you are caught - requiring you to use your wits and your equipment to survive. That right there is quite key - equipment. If it were anything but practically impossible to outwit the guard with some pathetic wits, then the game would be too easy - the idea of being a Thief is that you manipulate the board so that the game is biased towards you, when you should rightfully be dead and strung from the rafters. Making the guards such a challenge, noone actually wants to get into a fight, because there is a reasonable chance of losing said fight - weapons or not. It is the developer's job to make sure if I try to go toe-to-toe with anything but a mushroom I am cut to ribbons and used for tying hair back. (Unless of course I've taken the many hours it requires to become good enough with the sword to take on rats) With that in mind, if the guards are going to slice me as soon as they see me, I am encouraged to be as careful as possible, because I will likely lose my progress if one of them catches me. At the same time, it should be possible to escape - and that is where equipment comes in quite handy. It may be fun by the time it's over, but I wouldn't want to do it again in case I died.

EDIT With respect to oDD's post:

Firstly, the choice still remains for the elites to use their weaponry - it does not have to be purely a vehicle for escaping. Secondly, you are presuming that anyone will be elite enough to play the game perfectly. Yes, I know you are a God and ought to be bowed before, but I'm an irreverent heretic, so listen up: from what SH is saying, the idea is that no-one (not even you) can play the game without slipping up. That said, even if it weren't that hard, everyone (yes, even you) makes mistakes, so you'd still be caught at some point. If a guard finds you, then situation should not be "You failed, you failure. Restart." Because that's neither realistic nor fun. It should be "Oh holy crap, you've been caught, now you've got to inject neat adrenaline in order to think fast enough to escape." Yes, the latter is fun, and yes, it is fun resulting from a cock up. But firstly, everyone cocks up, and secondly, the object of the game is to be fun, not to "sort the men from the boys" (or "sort oDD from the puny humans")

Edited by FishFace, 19 August 2005 - 12:23 PM.

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#196 New Horizon

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:40 PM

In other words, we're dumbing the game down towards the lowest common denominator, in order to attract a wider audience.
Remind you of anyone?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Bull...shit.

Anything productive that could have been said in this thread has long since expired. As has my patience.

It's not even on topic anyway. So, if anyone wants to continue this argument of virtual moral supremecy, do it throgh PM's and spare the rest of the forum.

Closed.




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