Chloroform And Blackjacks

[bob_arctor]

Okay so maybe blackjack should have a weakness (I would like waking up, hence hide the bodies down the mineshaft > but it's not happening, fair enough) so you don't just use it the whole time (TDS especially. Why the dagger? I didn't use it on humans once).

 

So I think the blackjack should make some noise, as the person slumps and their sword hits the stone floor but unlike TDS this alerts the AI. Then you could buy Chloroform to take people out, they slump into your arms and you carry them without a gap.

Grab, hold, carry body to hiding place.

 

Quieter, but more expensive.

Pleaaaasseee.

[Springheel]

So I think the blackjack should make some noise, as the person slumps and their sword hits the stone floor but unlike TDS this alerts the A

 

Yes, this is already planned. To avoid this you have to catch the body and ease it down slowly.

[FishFace]

The problem I think is that there is no real difference between stabbing someone in the back and blackjacking them. From a purely aesthetic point of view, I like blackjacking better as it's far less stylish to go around murdering people, but we still could drop the blackjack and have barely any difference.

 

Switching to the side where I spout what I've heard the devs talking about, I believe they're considering/implementing very loud screams/yells/gurgles for dying people.

[Maximius]

Yes, this is already planned.  To avoid this you have to catch the body and ease it down slowly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats wonderful news, Ive wanted that for the T series for centuries.

 

The problem I think is that there is no real difference between stabbing someone in the back and blackjacking them. From a purely aesthetic point of view, I like blackjacking better as it's far less stylish to go around murdering people, but we still could drop the blackjack and have barely any difference.

 

Switching to the side where I spout what I've heard the devs talking about, I believe they're considering/implementing very loud screams/yells/gurgles for dying people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It does make sense not to murder willy nilly from one angle, as a thief you have enough problems w/o the weekly blood vengeance posse looking for you. I know it doesnt effect gameplay but it makes good sense for the "background context" or call it whatever. But sometimes you gotta smoke some guys.

 

I like the idea of chloroform though, maybe a two step process of BJing them for the quik take down and then chloro for the long sleep in the broom closet. It would add a nice touch

Edited August 19, 2005 by Maximius

[Springheel]

The problem I think is that there is no real difference between stabbing someone in the back and blackjacking them.

 

Sure there is. Backstabbing someone with a sword is not a guarrunteed kill, for starters (depends on the armour and where you hit them). And the resulting death scream will summon guards from all around whether you catch the body or not.

 

Chloroform won't be included...there aren't enough differences between it and a bj.

[Hylix Ulyx]

Mmmmmmm.....bj.....

[bob_arctor]

But it would be coool. And 100% silent. I mean if you hit someone on the head they still must gurgle, a clank for a start would be heard. I know IRL chloroform would have muffled yelling but for the game 100% silent would be cool. So people who always blackjack in the T series must either do it more carefull or spend resources on chloroform for easier taking out of guards.

[Springheel]

For gameplay purposes there is no difference between the two. Both require you to sneak up behind the victim, both work at close range, both work very quickly, both require you to catch the body to avoid making noise. There just isn't enough reason to do the work of creating two methods of doing the exact same thing.

[Ishtvan]

Re: chloroform, we've talked about this before, but I'm still skeptical that the person would not have time to struggle a little and make noise, at the very least by flailing around with their limbs before they got knocked out. I doubt it's as fast as we see in the movies.

[oDDity]

All you have to do is hold your breath for 30 seconds and you have 30 seconds struggle time.

[bob_arctor]

Or Tintin. He ALWAYS got got by chloroform. By opium dealers usually.

[FishFace]

Sure there is... [a difference between BJ and BS]

 

Hmm, I didn't realise you were going for the non-garunteed kill; that would certainly be good. Plus the scream, although I think I mentioned that - it all depends on how far away another chap needs to be before they come running. I take it, then that you're having a blackjack as a garunteed KO? Although hopefully you can no longer swat them in the ass and have them go down... That was amusing in the first two.

 

As for holding your breath for 30 seconds, it's unrealistic unless you're expecting the handkerchief thrust in front of you, and are expecting it to knock you out. I imagine you'd be startled enough to breathe in sharply anyway.

[Ishtvan]

You never know, sometimes when people are startled, they breathe in sharply, but sometimes if they've already taken a breath, they breathe it out sharply (and maybe say "WHAA!" in the process).

 

While our Bio people know more about this than me, Chlorofrom is going to take some time to diffuse into the lungs, thru the lung lining into the nervous system or wherever it actually takes effect. This is not an instant process, and kind've competing with this process is the sudden "Oh shit!" adrenaline rush of having an arm suddenly appear in front of you and shove something over your face.

 

It's educational to look at how long it takes chloroform to KO a willing participant, let alone someone taken by surprise. Chloroform used to be used as an old skool anesthetic, so a quick google search turns up some old letters about it:

 

[reformatted]

[Chloroform's] introducion, however, to the medical public as an anesthetic agent, is due to Professor Simpson, of the Edinburgh University, who has published the result of his experience. The following extracts from the letter to which I have referred, and from Professor Simpson's pamphlet, for which I am also indebted to Dr. Little, contain the most important items relative to this subject.

 

Dr. L. states in his letter that he has tried and witnessed the trial of chloroform, and from his experience thus far feels prepared to say that "the facility and rapidity with which the effect is produced, the absence of annoyance to the inhalers and bystanders, the tranquil manner in which a person who has inhaled recovers from the state of insensibility, and the length of time he remains insensible, even after inhaling the chloroform only thirty or thirty-five seconds, give it prominent advantage over ether."

 

Among other ad-vantages which Dr. Simpson affirms this compound to possess over ether,are --" its having an agreeable, fragrant, fruit.-like odor, and a saccharine taste; that a much less quantity of chloroform is requisite to produce the anesthetic effect, usually from 100 to 120 drops of chloroform only being sufficient, and with some patients much less. I have seen," he says, "a strong person rendered completely insensible by six or seven inspirations of 30 drops of the liquid. Its action is more rapid and complete, and generally more persistent. I have almost always seen from ten to twenty inspirations suffice. Hence the time of the surgeon is saved, and the preliminary stage of excitement is practically abolished..."

 

Brown B. Chloroform inhalation. Boston Med Surg J 37:446. December 29, 1847

Boston, Dec. 27, 1847.BUCKMINSTER BROWN.

 

NOTE: An "inspiration" is another word for breathing in, apparently, defined as: "the process by which the lungs take in air; also called inhalation."

 

Cliffs:

For people who are completely willing to be KO'd by chloroform as an anesthetic in surgery, it took 10-20 breaths to be absolutely certain of KO'ing them. The least time it took in some individual cases was six or seven breaths. The other number quoted was 30-35 seconds.

 

That's a lot of time to fight back. Especially considering many of the thief's opponents may be stronger than him.

 

Obscurus pointed out in another thread that chloroform starts to induce a state of euphoria, so the fight starts to go out of you as soon as you start breathing it, but I doubt it happens in just one breath. Also, we have to keep in mind that the euphoric effects of the vapor may initially be counterbalanced by the "oh shit, someone is attacking me!" effect.

[obscurus]

Very true, I have no data on the RL effectiveness of the use of chloroform as a means of rendering someone unconscious, but you have to remember, if you have a higher concentration of chloroform, the "patient" will go under faster, but with a greater risk of fatality, so a rag saturated with the stuff might well put you under in three to five breaths, maybe less. I don't really know

[FishFace]

Yes, there are a lot of unknowns - too many at least for me to go harping on about whether it would be quickly effective or not.

 

However, here is a quote from Wikipedia:

 

Chloroform is often used as a tool in kidnapping, especially in books and movies. The use of chloroform to knock out a victim was a recurrent plot device in 1980s television series such as Knight Rider and The A-Team. Typically, the villain would spill a few drops from a small bottle onto a handkerchief, and then sneak up behind the victim. When the handkerchief was held over the mouth of the victim, they would struggle for a few seconds before slumping unconscious. After-effects were usually limited to a brief headache. In reality, a dose far greater than a few drops inhaled over a short period of time would be required to knock somebody out.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

This could lead either way. It's obvious that if you have more chloroform, it requires less time to knock them out - of course you run the risk of killing the sucker, too. I personally don't think it's worth adding chloroform anyway.

[oDDity]

Also, remember the character you're playing is a small, slight, realatively weak man, so grabbing and holding a 6.5 foot tall guard who's built like a brick shithouse and weighs a ton in all his arnour ins't going to be a wise thing to do, or a possible one for that matter. Not all the guards are that big, but they're all bigger and stronger than the thief.

[FishFace]

Hired muscle: pay by the kilo.

 

The obvious solution is to douse those masks surgeons wear in chloroform, then all you have to do is snap it on and then dance around in front of them while they try to work out what's going on...

[obscurus]

Bear in mind also the intoxicating effect of chloroform, and the fact that your heart rate would rise rapidly when someone grabs you from behind - the increased heart rate will accelerate the effect of the chloroform (pumps it to your brain faster), and the almost narcotic effect will tend to make you want to breathe more in, and will take much of the struggle out of you. So it might actually be quite effective, possibly even on a large guard, provided you can hang on for a few seconds while the effect kicks in. Still a risky move though, a lot could go wrong...

 

What do people think about tranquiliser darts? Maybe not very mediaeval, but certainly fit in with a more Victorian theme...

[oDDity]

There are already gas arrows, wch do the same job.

We want something like that to be very rare. What kind of shit easy game would it be if you can just silently knock out every guard from a distance.

You may as well not put any AI on the map in the first place and make it a fun treause hunt on assorted levels.

[obscurus]

Well yes, I merely suggested it as an alternative to gas arrows. But really, I don't think there should be any significant capacity for knocking out guards - should be about getting around them through the use of sneakery (did I just invent a new word?). I think any means of disposing of guards should be rare as hens teeth.

[FishFace]

"We want something like [tranq darts] to be very rare. What kind of shit easy game would it be if you can just silently knock out every guard from a distance."

 

QFE

[oDDity]

Well ,you can't make a blackjack 'rare'. You either have it or you don't.

What I wanted was for guards wearing helemts to be impossible to knock out, as they woukld be in RL.

I refined that to being able to knock off the regular guard's helmets with one hand and then whack them with the other, while the elite guards have chinstraps, so they are completely un-KOable.

It''s also going to be a lot harder to sneak up and blackjack guards anyway, unlike THief, where you can basically run/stop/run/stop/run up behind them - 'What was tha..' *whack*

THe only other solution would be to give the blackjack no more than a random chance of knocking the victim out, as it would be in RL, but random chance isn't something that anyone likes, including me.

 

For me, broadhead arrows are completely out of the question as a thief 'tool'. They are for assassination only and serve no other purpose (that can't be filled by using one of your other items)

If I could remove one single item from Thief, it would be broadheads, and certainly don't want them in this game.

OF course, no one else on the team agrees, so you broadhead lovers don't need to fret.

[Maximius]

If some sort of knock out chemical were to be used, it neednt be chloroform at all, as we are already dealing with an alternate universe and all.

 

Let me propose my idea again: A black jack to KO guards for the short term, but they can awaken, and a bottle of KO juice to make sure a KOd guard stays asleep for hours. So you have a two step process for completely removing a guard from the picture, you can blackjak him but he will awaken in like 15 minutes so then you have to drag his ass to a closet and chloroform him. Its an increased risk of being caught but if you can do it that guard is really out of the picture. Plus if you used up your bottle of KO juice, you only have short KOs left to work with, which adds a wrinkle, you cant go using it up willy nilly.

[Springheel]

We talked about guards waking up, or being revived by companions. But that idea turned out to be a lot harder to implement than you might think. Just figuring out how to create a 'get up' animation that works regardless of the position the AI's ragdoll was in would require tons of work.

[bob_arctor]

Well ,you can't make a blackjack 'rare'.  You either have it or you don't.

What I wanted was for guards wearing helemts to be impossible to knock out, as they woukld be in RL.

I refined that to being able to knock off the regular guard's helmets with one hand and then whack them with the other, while the elite guards have chinstraps, so they are completely un-KOable.

It''s also going to be a lot harder to sneak up and blackjack guards anyway, unlike THief, where you can basically run/stop/run/stop/run up behind them - 'What was tha..' *whack*

THe only other solution would be to give the blackjack no more than a random chance of knocking the victim out, as it would be in RL, but random chance isn't something that anyone likes, including me.

 

For me, broadhead arrows are completely out of the question as a thief 'tool'. They are for assassination only and serve no other purpose (that can't be filled by using one of your other items)

If I could remove one single item from Thief, it would be broadheads, and certainly don't want them in this game.

OF course, no one else on the team agrees, so you broadhead lovers don't need to fret.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I use em for testing for rope arrows. Although because of the CLACKCLACK I can only use them for testing trajectory; if I use them to test for whether a texture is ropeable then it can backfire and alert guards.