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[oDDity]

I would really prefer if you could hold back your opinion a bit and be more civilised. Fact is, that it IS opinion anyway, until you can prove it otherwise. And wether somebody enjoys a game doesn't mean he is an idiot. I don't know how often I told you that other people may have different preferences and you should accept this for a fact. Insulting doesn't change this. And when it comes to personal taste, there is no right or wrong, because it is SUBJECTIVE by nature.

 

No. Let's get one thing perfectly clear. It's not opinion. Dungeon Siege 1 and 2 are pathetic peices of low brow crap with no redeeming features. They're the sort of cheap, trashy, dumbed down, lazy, intelectual-less games aimed at the most tasteless undescerning members of society. A profound mongoloid with an IQ of 10 could play it. It's the kind of game you'd make for other members of the ape family, but not homo sapiens. Everyone should openly despise it, and then loudly demand far better, otherwise we'll never get anything better. It's like cheap sugary, salty, fatty snackfood. THe food industy has become swamped with that kind of trash because people with no taste or culinary and dietary education buy it. It makes me sick.

[sparhawk]

No. Let's get one thing perfectly clear. It's not opinion. Dungeon Siege 1 and 2 are pathetic peices of low brow crap with no redeeming features.

 

Apparently there are poeple who seem to like it. Hell, even I liked it, at least in the beginning. If comapnies wouldn't sell such games, that doesn't automatically mean that more sophisticated games would attract more followers. As you can easily see with the Thief series, it was not very popular. And if you look at the hitory of Looking Glass, apparently they were known for creating creative and innovative games, but what did it get them? A bunch of pretty awards and a letter from the bailiff (or marshal if you prefer). I know a lot of games from the C64 era, which are really good games and I still like to play them, but you can't sell them anymore just with the argument that these are really good games.

[heXen]

what was ever complicated in hexen? i never met hexen2 but i remember hexen i was pretty much like doom.. kill what comes around,swith buttons here and there, complete the level..

 

Well, if we compare DooM and heXen, there are differences. Inventory, for a start. You can play 3 classes, even though they are not very different. Hub system, mark you. Proper storyline. Speaking of complication - well, I don't remember a time when I wasn't stuck in Shadow Wood. Of course, if you just go through Winnowing Hall and run around Seven Portals you will never know that there is a hub system. Meaning that you can switch buttons here and there and in the end you don't know what was opened. And another thing - heXen does not have simultaneos weapons, or enemies with them. And heXen had improved melee. Whatewer, heXen is magical/medieval. Is DooM medieval? Don't try to mix these games. Heretic may be a clone, but not heXen.

 

Speaking of heXen II, it's quite different. There are 4 classes now, and there is also such thing as level up, but the only thing it does is improve your health. Also, heXen II was more centered on placing objects at the right position, but also in one place you had to adjust the constelations, in another you had to presss something in a particular order. The game also took architectures of Medieval, Greece, Egypt(!), and Maya. Very beautiful, something DooM never had. The hub system again, though, unfortunately, a few linearing bugs. But otherwise the game is better than heXen I, but I like them both.

[_Atti_]

well i know its medieval/magic like i remember that much but didnt remember of a storyline or anything more complex than a door-key association ..i did remember potions,classes and such but not the inventory..

 

well thanks for refreshing my mind..it was so long i played it..

[heXen]

THere were no potions, there were flechetts, and they work different for each class. If you used them, then you used the inventory. There should have been quartz flasks, urns, torches, porkalators, dark servants, boots of speed, the icon of the defender... Well, I hope you don't think I was talking about rpg-style inventory, there is sure no gold or equip slots, the game is not RPG, ypu have your 4 weapons, that's all. But still, at that time, placing acid fletchettes and watching monsters suffocating from them was cool.

 

The storyline is not in the game - I had to read it. It helps raise the atmosphere. But if you don't like the game, it won't help. I read it 10 years after playing it.

 

I think you just got bored and didn't reach much. The game begins with a door-key association, you find the green key for one door, silver for another, then you ring the bell, go to the portal, enter another portal and you see the head on my avatar saying you are about to die. That's the seven portals level, the first hub. Did you reach there? There should be seven doors there. Gold doors.

[_Atti_]

i downloaded the demo and now i remember how it worked..yes surely it was more complex than the average shooters now i remember

 

i think i had a ripped version when i played it..in the time when there was space for 30 or so ripped games on a single cd,and unpayable prices for legit software(not that that latest changed much.\ )

[Darkness_Falls]

Hexen wrote: Well, I think I won't buy AoE III after that demo. I think the Colonial Ages are a big problem with me. All those trading posts, home cities... And, MAPS. The map I liked best in AoE II was Black Forest. I like having closed up areas. And AoE III levels were wide and open, fortunately, the campaign wasn't, but still, forest is no longer an obstackle. Another thing is those stupid sounds. WHen the home city is ready, of someone attacks. The unit control - where are the formations and attitude? Resourses - where is stone? ANd why on Earth is the game 3D and so ugly... Coming back to AoE II, giant Black Forest map, 5 enemies, hardest...

Well, I'm buying it so I'll let you know what I think. I also didn't care for the demo, but I'm taking the plunge and hoping for the best because I know they've fixed at least 800 bugs since it's release, and because the demo was probably a slightly watered-down version of what will be released on 10/18. There's a setting within the options screen to turn on advanced formations. I didn't experiment with them, but they offer some formations anyways. And just because you saw 3 or 4 maps doesn't mean there aren't any heavily forested maps. AoE2:Conquerors had like 20 maps to choose from, and you can build your own if you want with the AoE3 map editor. Random map generation options will also allow you some control over what types of maps get cranked out. If there isn't a black forest map upon release, I'm sure a fan will make one for download if you don't build your own. Yes, the stupid sounds irritated the hell out of me, too. But I'm hoping for the best on that; I heard they maybe didn't put all the sounds in the demo for file-size sake. If the demo actually had it all, then I'm hoping we will be able to put our own sound files in if we want. The graphics sucked on my machine, too -- but if you have a high-end system it looks gorgeous. Going from 512MB RAM to 1Gig helped a lot for me. Still a ways to go, but it was a lot better. You mentioned before you had to play F.E.A.R. at 640 x 480. Same here (when I had 512MB of RAM). So I bet the AoE3 graphics sucked as bad for me as it did for you. It's not Ensemble Studios' fault we don't have more powerful PCs. Trees also didn't fall down when chopped in the demo. I hear that was a bug and trees will fall in the final game. They've also made an option for a more minimized version of the UI (if I didn't say before. I'm too lazy to check my last post(s)).

[oDDity]

Apparently there are poeple who seem to like it. Hell, even I liked it, at least in the beginning. If comapnies wouldn't sell such games, that doesn't automatically mean that more sophisticated games would attract more followers. As you can easily see with the Thief series, it was not very popular. And if you look at the hitory of Looking Glass, apparently they were known for creating creative and innovative games, but what did it get them? A bunch of pretty awards and a letter from the bailiff (or marshal if you prefer). I know a lot of games from the C64 era, which are really good games and I still like to play them, but you can't sell them anymore just with the argument that these are really good games.

 

It doesn't matter how popular it is. The majority of people have no taste, we all know that. The average generic gamer has no taste, that's why so many average generic games are made and sold to him.

You can't judge a game's quality by how many copies it sells. The biggest factor in how many copies a game sells is advertsing, publicity and kewlness, all of which have nothing to do with the asthetic or intellectual quality of the game.

I'm not blaming the people who make these games, I'm blaming the people who buy them. It's a business, and obviously it's easier and more cost effective to make a cheap shoddy generic game than it is to make a great one, so if people happily buy the cheap shoddy ones, then that's exactly what they're going to make. A few great games are still made by companies who still retain a little pride, and who are still more interested in the gamemaking side of the equation than the moneymaking side.

[Domarius]

NWN is probably good with a Dungeon master, but show me ONE party that has one non-magic user in it, just one, and I'll show you a group that has a player that feels he or she is severely marginalised and not contributing to the party's sucess.

 

NWN's hugest flaw is that it doesn't implement resting the way it works in D&D. In D&D, a spell is a big deal. It's really powerful, and once it's cast, no more till beddy byes. And you can't camp in the middle of some enemies house in D&D the way you can just click "rest" and wait ten seconds in NWN. Non-magic characters are sitting there hitting one guy doing about 10 hp with each hit, then magic users run into the room and do 50+ damage to every enemy in one shot. Then they just sit in the hallway and "rest" for 10 seconds and then get back into it. Yeah I'm sure the lord of the mansion would appreciate comming home after a night out to a house full of sleeping adventurers in his hallway and dead guys at one end and guards who have no idea at the other.

 

Without a DM, NWN is not much better than Diablo 2 in the way you just kill things and get better stuff, except there is the odd chance to persuade someone and the storyline is a bit more involved.

 

Also the turn based side of it sucks. Keep that for pen and paper D&D where it belongs. There is nothing more stupid than running away from a baddie who is doing a melee attack, he swings, he misses cause you're at the other side of the room, but no, the game says "you're not techincally fast enough to do that" and you get hit anyway, even though he's nowhere near you. The numbers shit is for pen and paper where you are simulating real tiem combat. There is no need for this in a video game that is already real time!!

[sparhawk]

I'm not blaming the people who make these games, I'm blaming the people who buy them. It's a business, and obviously it's easier and more cost effective to make a cheap shoddy generic game than it is to make a great one, so if people happily buy the cheap shoddy ones, then that's exactly what they're going to make. A few great games are still made by companies who still retain a little pride, and who are still more interested in the gamemaking side of the equation than the moneymaking side.

 

Let's face it. Teh number of hardcore gamers, who appreciate tough games, are much smaller than the number of casual gamers. And among the number of casual gamers obviously there is a big number which just wants to make a simple game for their enjoyment. They don't want to spend hours in front of the computer just to play. It's a feedback loop between big number of players and the money you earn by creating games. The smaller your audience, the smaller your earning. And even though the pirating is probably much higher in the casual gamer societey, then in a diehard fanbase, there are still much more casual gamers to easily compensate for that.

[_Atti_]

I see New Horizon you never played nwn on a good pw(persistent world)..

 

in most if you sleep then you cant sleep for another 15 r so ingame hours..

only in Inns.

 

and for example..I do run a fighter who has no connection to magic..

and many have fighters,rogues,barbarians

especially because a good PW has such scripted rules that it balances these things..if you dont have a rogue in your party you can just forget a lot of places behind closed doors,treasures..or you got to walk a lot harder way to get keys and such..

monster are also balanced that way..there are some that are just so resilent to magic that you got to group with some brute force to get over it.

 

not to speak of the Dm leaded questd and longer stories..where every kind of character can be of good use..and where almost everything is possible.

On an rp server you got almost half of your exp for roleplaying and not hacknslashing all day

 

And what you say that 'you are on the other side of the room but you do get hit because you cant do it phishically'

 

thats why its a role playing game and not an action game..in an action game it depends on YouR skill to avoid an attack..in a Roleplaying game..it depends on your characters Skill..so if you would like to avoid such things just increase your characters 'tumble' skill or get features that gives your character power to do it..like the 'dodge' or 'mobility' feats

 

 

but yes..singleplayer is not good at all..the story is uninteresting,and the characters are just not too exciting as well..and hacknslash alone..in that slower pace..is just boring..

[Domarius]

Well persistant worlds sound cool, maybe me and my brothers will give it a try in our next (bi-annual) gaming session.

 

But I find turn based stuff a lot less engaging. You're just sitting there clicking, waiting for your experience points to go up so it will take less clicks to kill something. A lot of amazing and crazy things happen in real-time combat games that can't be simulated in turn based. They fake it with rolls that simulate misses and hits, and it takes all the excitement away.

 

And stats aren't tied to turn based combat either. Deus Ex is a role playing game with stats, and the combat is real time. What I especially like about the way they implemented stats in that game is that you don't inexplicably get more exp every time you kill the same thing over and over again. You get exp for completing goals and secret goals, so there its a fixed amoutn of exp in the game, so the way you use them lets you create a unique character. Rather than be like every other RPG out there which lets any nerd become good at anything just because he's got nothing better to do than mindlessly click away on his dad's cable internet.

[_Atti_]

if smoething..than a game on such a pw is not mindless clicking..even the hack and slash should be done carefully since you lose a lot of exp if you die..of course there are ways of revival but most have its price..

[heXen]

i downloaded the demo and now i remember how it worked..yes surely it was more complex than the average shooters now i remember

 

i think i had a ripped version when i played it..in the time when there was space for 30 or so ripped games on a single cd,and unpayable prices for legit software(not that that latest changed much.\ )

 

Well, my first version of heXen beyond Heretic + Deathkings of the Dark Citadel came with additional 50 games, including Heretic + Shadow of the Serpent Riders, Duke Nukem 3D, DooM, Warcraft II Tides of Darkness + Beyond the Dark Portal, and a bunch of games I don't like C&C, Settlers, bla-bla. None of them were ripped, except the movies. But I usually get heXen from here - www.abandonware-france.com . It's a site of old games, full unripped versions. That disk was thrown out, mainly because at that time, I didn't know about DooMsday and my parents thought I will spoil my eyes playing Heretic/heXen. But thanks to DooMsday heXen looks better than heXen II, with the exception of Thysis (Egypt) area.

[Domarius]

Someone who appreciates the classics Me and my two brothers rampaged through Hexen back in the DOS days on our own Ethernet LAN. Youngest brother was teh Cleric, younger brother was the Mage, and I was the Fighter. There being only 3 clasess to choose from suited us 3 just fine, we all chose the one we suited our playing style to.

 

It was cool. When a horde of enemies came, we backed out into a doorway, Cleric plugged it full of his stationary fletchetts, Mage sat there shooting through the door, and Fighter stood to one side of the door chopping constantly to kill any that made it through. Well that was one of many tactics.

 

Hey you should get kmod (Korax Mod for Hexen). It works with JHexen (kind of like DoomsDay) but only an older version. Too bad the development got cancelled. It has too many bugs to play through on co-op - no saving, so no keeping stats, and crashes between some levels, so you cant' even try to get as far as you want.

But its still worth checking out. basically you earn GP and EXP for every kill, cause sometimes monsters leave some gold or coins when they die, which you were supposedly goign to spend on the shop that never got properlyi impmented.

But the best part is what you spend magic points on. Magic points are not mana, they are something else again. Each class has these spells they can cast - oen of the coolest is Cleric - he causes all dead bodies around him to turn into ghosts and kill heaps of enemies with them. The fighter only has one spell - beserker mode, and it rocks. basically, for a short amoutn of time, your HP is multiplied by 2, and your strength and speed goes through the roof. Once when we opened up a pit of monsters in the caves, I dived in first (giving a battle cry) before the other 2 coudl do anything, and activating beserker mode - looking through the entracnce to the cave, they likened it to watching a blender being turned on frape, so much was the amount of blood and guts mixing it up in the room and coming out of the entrance. Not less than 10 seconds later, the room was emtpy of monsters but full of a lot of red.

[heXen]

Cool, did he added gore too? I don't remember any in heXen. Just corpses. Can you give a link to the mod? And souls - reminds me of the clerics wraithwerge. Cleric is my favorite class - his fletchettes are the best, and wraithwerge is just devastating!

 

What is gp for?

[Dram]

GP = Gold Pieces

[Domarius]

You will do as well as me if you do a search for "korax mod hexen" or something - you will need to find an alternate download as I tried to search for it for you when I made that post, and to my dismay, found their official website is now gone. (The URL has the word "heriatage" in it, so if such an URL comes up in your searches, you will find it to be dead )

 

But other places should be hosting their most recent version.

 

I am not surprised the site is dead, their uypdates became less and less frequent, and when I last checked, they hadn't updated in a year.

 

But GP was to be spent in the shops in between levels - the shops never got working properly. And yeah there is added gore. Not sure if thats due to Korax Mod or jHexen, the engine it uses. And yes the souls were the ghosts from the wraithverge, its just that when he cast the spell, all the nearby bodies exploded and those ghosts erupted from them and went crazy on all the remaining enemies.

Mage has a spell that makes him invisible, something else I just remembered.

[heXen]

I'll try to find it.

 

Nice... Is there something like that in DooM, Atti?

 

 

I shouldn't have done that... Now I had to use the crater of might... Still, heXen is not just fights...

 

I think is was Kokak's Heritage, not Korax. I thought it was another graphical improvement, so I didn't look into it.

 

You know any graphical improvements for monsters and weapons? In 2D, I mean, the 3D-models don't look well, besides, there is only ettin model for heXen. Also, there is a hud improvement for Heretic, but I didn't see any for heXen.

 

There isn't any additional gore in jheXen. It's the mod then. I remember seeing a screen of Kokak's mod, and the first mage weapon was yellow, not blue there. I suppose they tweaked the graphics a bit. But heXen/Heretic always lacked blood, that would be nice.

Edited October 10, 2005 by heXen

[Domarius]

Yeah the ettin was the only 3D model of monsters ever done, and the animation for it sucks too. The 3D items are good though.

 

DoomsDay is the only really good graphical improvement I know of. It works with Hexen.

[_Atti_]

"Is there something like that in DooM, Atti?"

 

OMG your still there? i told you i didnt remember and i by any ways never said doom was any better than hexen..i just didnt remember what hexen was ike and i associated on doom.i am awfully sorry..i downoaded a demo of hexen and now i remember that YES surely it was lot more complex than doom.. got it? ok fine:)

[heXen]

Fans are very protective of their games. I don't think you would have reacted well if I called Thief a Splinter Cell clone!

[sparhawk]

It isn't. The only way it could be is the other way around, because Thief was there BEFORE Splinter Cell. That's why this galls me even more, because in game mags every time a sneaking game is mentioned it is referenced to SC in a way as if they invented the sneaking genre.

[heXen]

It is often you find something like that in magazines. Sometimes people just don't know about the existence of many games, because they are not AAA type. If the magazine writes - Thief, who will know what is thief? But if they write SC, everybody will by happy. I never played it thoug.... What is it like? Any close to thief?

[sparhawk]

It's like a modern Thief, but it doesn't offer the freedom of Thief. It is pretty linear, so I have heard. I started to play it, but I didn't like it so I never played beyond the intro.