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#151 Forsaken

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Posted 21 November 2005 - 11:02 PM

Well, broadhead arrow is not that useless... You can use it instead of some object as a distraction method.
Too late to save us but try to understand
The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land
We let the madmen write the golden rules
We were just Children of the Moon
We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world
Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by
Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

#152 oDDity

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 05:51 AM

Well, oDDity is right, as always... But I suppose he passes every level in five seconds without using anything and ever be noticed.


THat's what the game (should) be about, if they'd made it more intelligently and emphasised it.
Sitting and waiting and watching and picking the right moment to make your move. It creates tremendous tension.
It's about 'Will I be able to make it to that door before a guard comes round one of those corners'?
Not 'I thinik I'll snipe that guard from these shadows, killing him in one hit, wait till any fuss dies down and then be able to use that door any time I want without thinking about it again'
It's not about brutally clearing a path to your objective, you can play any game if you want to do that, it's about skillfully finding the best path to your objective and then gliding through, silent and invisible.
Think of the guards not as enemies and obstacles that have to be destroyed, but as pieces of a puzzle that have to be solved, and killing one is like cutting an edge off a jigsaw piece so you can jam it into the wrong hole.
Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.
- Emil Zola

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#153 Dram

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 07:18 AM

yep, for once oDD got it perfect. I reckon thats what it should be like too :D

#154 Maximius

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 09:36 AM

Forsaken, if you havent finished the prison map yet, it is possible to sneak up onto the second level of cells, creep down the row until you come to the control room with the guard standing staring out the window. Sneak up behind him and carefully lean, you should be able to pluck the keys from the rack w/o disturbing him. After that, you are on your own.

#155 Forsaken

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 08:35 PM

I finished Crag Prison. Only stealing keys are not a problem, opening a cell is.
Too late to save us but try to understand
The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land
We let the madmen write the golden rules
We were just Children of the Moon
We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world
Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by
Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

#156 woah

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 10:42 AM

I think the Thief games were made too easy--especially when in reference to incapacitating guards. It's rediculous how you can circle around guards, swinging at them with your sword, and kill them almost effortlessly. In addition, they can't really hear too well or see very far at all (it must be something like 25 feet before they even notice you--even in the brightest conditions). These three things, eyesight, hearing, and guard difficulty are what disapoint me the most about Thief. Such ludicrously advantageous game mechanics (when in reference to the player) is what makes average players like Forsaken forgo the intended act of stealth. Thus, being that the game permits such a gameplay style--perhaps even favors it in some cases, you can't really blame them for doing so.

Thief was obviously designed for the intention that players would sneak around in the shadows and incapacitate guards only when necessary, though; killing/black-jacking is repeatedly advised against in the game. The fact that expert mode denies you the ability to do so makes this clear. It makes me sick to read reviews or skim through walkthroughs where the author black jacks practically every single guard in the game. I fail to see how anybody could find Thief fun if they played in this fashion.

I really hope The Dark Mod makes thieving a lot more realistic and challenging, for the gameplay's sake. Better, and more aware, responsive, and realistically challenging AI is the key.

#157 thestemmer

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 10:58 AM

Woah, if you're really looking for a more realistic Thief experience, I suggest picking up the Ultimate Difficulty mod. It makes the guards a bit more aware, especially to things like the player running up behind them or blackjacking somebody nearby. It's not perfect by any means, especially since the levels weren't designed with it in mind, but it's still very entertaining and playable. There's one for both Thief 1 and Thief 2. Here's a link.

Edit: whoops, didn't see that you had already linked that...I'll leave it up, though, just in case anyone wants it.

Edited by thestemmer, 25 November 2005 - 11:06 AM.


#158 Domarius

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 11:28 AM

oDDity is right - blackjacking every single guard in the level then running around free is no different than killing them all. I have a lot of fun on the missions where the blackjacking is restricted to a certain number. Way more tense, movie-like exciting things happen as a result.

The problem is, without that arbritraty restriction, thief is to easy to reduce to a simple game of walk-behind-guard-whack, for each guard, till the level is empty.

As far as gameplay is concerned, blackjacking is just killing without blood. Hopefully with our ideas to make it harder it won't be so simple.

#159 Macsen

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 11:40 AM

I have a lot of fun on the missions where the blackjacking is restricted to a certain number. Way more tense, movie-like exciting things happen as a result.


I'm not afan of this idea because it tends to lead to the rainy day effect. I usually just save up all my blackjacks in case I'll be needing them and end up not using any. It also doesn't make sense - why would a Thief set out only to blackjack a few guards? Perhaps if the blackjack broke after 5 guards or something...

#160 Forsaken

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 03:49 PM

Personaly, Ultimate Difficulty mod doesn't mke the game harder. It just makes it harder to blackjack, so you rather avoid doing that, basicaly it is what is needed for the game. But still - if a guard even already hits you with a sword, but you whack him 2-3 times with the blackjack, he falls down...
Too late to save us but try to understand
The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land
We let the madmen write the golden rules
We were just Children of the Moon
We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world
Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by
Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

#161 woah

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 04:11 PM

Woah, if you're really looking for a more realistic Thief experience, I suggest picking up the Ultimate Difficulty mod. It makes the guards a bit more aware, especially to things like the player running up behind them or blackjacking somebody nearby. It's not perfect by any means, especially since the levels weren't designed with it in mind, but it's still very entertaining and playable. There's one for both Thief 1 and Thief 2. Here's a link.

Edit: whoops, didn't see that you had already linked that...I'll leave it up, though, just in case anyone wants it.


I figured there was something like that out there in the mod world. But--like you said--the levels are not designed for that difficulty level, so I assume I'll run into many bugs and such. Thanks anyways though :)

I'm not afan of this idea because it tends to lead to the rainy day effect. I usually just save up all my blackjacks in case I'll be needing them and end up not using any. It also doesn't make sense - why would a Thief set out only to blackjack a few guards? Perhaps if the blackjack broke after 5 guards or something...


What needs to be done is not to limit the number of blackjackings based on the fact that it would not be "thief-like"--that's avoiding the problem. Such a feature makes the game feel less immersive and real--it's a "simulation within a simulation."

The solution is much different. The player has to feel pressured into the aversion of killing and blackjacking guards and other AI as a result of knowing the consequences that would distinguish themselves in doing so. Guards need to feel like more of a threat; they need to have superb artificial intelligence and they need to be dangerous. In no circumstance should a player be able to successfully "take on" more than one guard in a fight. Sure, guards should, of course, still captivate the dumb and docile caricatures that are so classic to the thief series, but the player should know that under that facade of idiocy is a ferine brute--much larger and stronger than the player is. Guards need to have good communication skills, at least some indication of logical thought, and need to employ an attention span or memory that lasts for over 20 seconds, at least. I have ideas on what AI modifications could be implemented, but I'll leave it up to the team to employ implementations that solve this problem present in past Thief games.

#162 Domarius

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 11:16 PM

Yes woah, that's more my line of thinking.

I was only mentioning the blackjack number restriction because it automatically makes the game more exciting - but it is a strange limitation to have and we should try our best to emulate this kind of gameplay by making it so that you become discouraged from blackjacking and killing.




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