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Ombrenuit

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to maximius:

 

you said:

The native americans were not beaten into submission by the Anglos, they were beaten into submission by microorganisms carried over by the Anglos for which native americans had no resistance. Many times the number of people died from disease as did from warfare. This is not to say the Anglos didnt kill anyone, they did that in droves, but the real conquerer of the New World was tuberculosis and cholera IIRC.

 

Radley response:

"trail of tears" "Railway Buffalo shooting" getting close how about "reservations" "Integration and Anglicization" loss of freedom loss of any real numbers ever heard of "Anna May Pictou Aquash"

 

AND

you said ""

The native americans , south and north, had very complex societies. The Incas were astronomers, the Mayans had extensive zoos and museums, the NorthWest indians in what is now N.California and Washington State had rather advanced political systems that were far more egalitarian than Western Europes. Not that these peoples were perfect or better, they were savage and cruel too, but hardly the degenerates you describe."

 

Radley Response again:

every developed culture had astronomers and astrologers. looking to the heavens is one of the first things a developed culture does. Even many small social groups look up at night sky. Nothing-big here. North or South America neither had glass and you cant make telescopes from mud” northern didn’t even have written language to speak of (Lakota did later but not till Latin characters had been on the continent for 600 years and they used them in that very heavily.) so how developed where the Indians when Anglos stomped them into small invisible reservations (lets just say the middle of a stone age Literally a stone age)

 

Why say democratic (egalitarian) is better than dictatorship or communism or monarchy it still boils down to whatever works and monarchies are not less ADVANCED because they are old. They have been around a lot longer and have been working a lot longer too. Monarchies and Oligarchies have been around the block and shall retune democracy is nothing but a social experiment like UTOPIA read the book it great fiction. Have you ever thought that maybe democratic system is really a sort of partitioned off oligarchy anyway I mean you put the president or the governor you want in power, when you have all the power(money, land, food Ext..)

 

So lets not talk up any race who haven’t really shown the muster for Anglos have the sun never sets on her majesties empire even if paper says it does because you know and I know that even America still is under her majestic influence.

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There are very few democracies in existence. America is a classic example of an elective oligarchy, that is, Americans elect a dictator every 4 years or so to rule them. By definition, a true democracy has no leaders, no social hierarchy, no rulers, and it is difficult for them to function on large scales (100 people or less is typical) - on a large scale it is very difficult to get away from a hierarchical social structure. Monarchies work well if you have lots of wars, and are generaly a violent people. Self regulating semi-democracies work well if you are interested in peaceful commerce for mutual benefit.

 

As far as your view that Hammerites are a parody of Catholics etc, well really, Catholicism is such a joke that any attempt to parody it is redundant. Any religious organisation of a similar nature is just going to be as inherently self paroidising as Catholicism.

 

Seriously, I have no problem with the factional groups in the city per se, though they do make things a bit polarised. If you tried to do a very serious historical depiction of Catholics in the 15th Century for example, it would be no less of a parody than in the Thief series, but in reality people are not as cut and dried as a few basic factions.

 

 

The Incans, Mayans and Aztec peoples had developed the technology of polishing high quality quartz crystals and making a variety of objects that could function as very high quality optical devices such as lenses. The Maya had an extensive and expressive written language, and the oldest written languages came out of Asia and the Middle East, not North Western Europe. The Ancient Greeks and Romans were more technologically advanced in almost every respect than 17th Century Europeans, and few civilisations can match the barbarity and degeneration of modern USA (I'm not saying all Americans are barbarians, but your current government most definately is, and you voted for it).

 

Need I also remind you MR that the oldest continous civilisation is that of China, which has been going strong for far longer than any other civilisation in history, and has always been one of the most technologcally advanced.

 

So quit the Anglocentric bullshit.

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to maximius:

 

Radley response:

"trail of tears" "Railway Buffalo shooting" getting close how about "reservations" "Integration and Anglicization" loss of freedom loss of any real numbers ever heard of "Anna May Pictou Aquash"

 

**None of those events even begin to compare to the numbers killed by disease. Since the arrival of the Spanish in South and Central America, 10s of millions of Indian peoples died due to illness, perhaps even more. All the way up into the late 19th century in the North American west. The numbers are simply incomparable.

 

Radley Response again:

every developed culture had astronomers and astrologers.

looking to the heavens is one of the first things a developed culture does.

 

**What the hell is a "developed" culture? How can a culture exist without developing? All cultures are "developed" cultures. Its an empty concept.

 

Even many small social groups look up at night sky. Nothing-big here. North or South America neither had glass and you cant make telescopes from mud”

 

** There are plenty of non-optical astronomical devices that can be used to study the skies for one thing. You keep mixing up the fact of technology with the notion of progress, a big mistake. My own nation, the U.S. is very technologically advanced yet socially and culturally stunted in my opinion. The Roman Empire had plenty of technological muscle but almost no scientific inquiry, they had the "how" but they rarely bothered to ask the "why".

 

 

of (Lakota did later but not till Latin characters had been on the continent for 600 years and they used them in that very heavily.)

 

**some native americans had written languages, some did not.

 

all invisible reservations (lets just say the middle of a stone age Literally a stone age)

 

**Again after years of depradation from disease took hundreds of thousands of lives in N. America in the 19th century ALONE. If disease had not done its grim work, the history of the New World would have been a lot different. I suspect something similar to what happened in Africa, where the coastal nations were conquered due to technological advantage and access to sea power but where the interior regions remained relatively isolated until pretty recently. And they were not simply "stone age" cultures for that matter, again that only looks at technology. Many Amero-Indian societies were preferable to living in Western European societies, in terms of access to resources, to political power, and in terms of a community that tended to its own.

 

Why say democratic (egalitarian) is better than dictatorship or communism or monarchy it still boils down to whatever works and monarchies are not less ADVANCED because they are old. They have been around a lot longer and have been working a lot longer too. Monarchies and Oligarchies have been around the block and shall retune democracy is nothing but a social experiment like UTOPIA read the book it great fiction. Have you ever thought that maybe democratic system is really a sort of partitioned off oligarchy anyway I mean you put the president or the governor you want in power, when you have all the power(money, land, food Ext..)

 

**Huh? Because in an egalitarian society, YOU have more security/rights/whatever. In a dictatorship or a monarchy, you live at the whim of the powers that be. A truly democratic/egalitarian society is in your best interests. Unless you like being a slave.

Whatever works? What the hell does that mean? You mean whatever keeps the status quo in power? Unless you are a member of that status quo, I suspect you are not, your interests and theirs are diametrically opposed. Why does that "work" for you? Why would you seek to defend that? you are as much a pawn to them as any of the less "developed" nations they exploit. You are the mook they send to die to steal the land/oil/resources of some other poor mook around the globe.

Seriously, a fucking monarchy? In fact, they really DONT work anymore, liberal democracy with its sham electoral politics and facade of liberty masking corporate/private power is the current mode. And the term oligarchy doesnt really work in the sense you are using it, its not a "stand alone" kind of government. No one declares, "The nation of Yazoo is a proud and happy oligarchy!" You can have democratic oligarchies, theocratic oligarchies, aristocratic oligarchies, it describes the state of various kinds of government. To put it another way, show me a government that ISNT an oligarchy of one kind or another. Maybe Castro's Cuba.

 

 

 

So lets not talk up any race who haven’t really shown the muster for Anglos have the sun never sets on her majesties empire even if paper says it does because you know and I know that even America still is under her majestic influence.

 

**Muster?! Oh, dear god please. Its sad to see someone identify with silly racial/cultural cartoon roles. Its like you are a member of "Team Anglo!" and you've just won your third trophy for whatever and you have to gloat about beating "Team Asian" or "Team Africa." The politics of empire are a hell of a lot more complicated than all that, and I assure you your role in the whole mess is not one that has your best interests in sight. And the sun is setting on a lot of empires these days, the one I am a member of has certainly seen better days. I hope I live to see it collapse even further. Oh, and the concept of "race" is without scientific value, by the way. Race is a social/cultural system of classifiying humans, not a scientific one. There are some non-Anglo "races" that you share more of a genetic inheritence with than you do with some other "Anglos." Yes, thats correct, you are more closely related to some non-whites than you are to some other whites.

Edited by sparhawk
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There are some non-Anglo "races" that you share more of a genetic inheritence with than you do with some other "Anglos." Yes, thats correct, you are more closely related to some non-whites than you are to some other whites.

 

An interesting article about celtic genetics. Apparently the Welsh are more closely related to the Native Americans than the Anglo-Saxons, but we're said to be the same 'race' as the English. :)

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hope you don’t take me too seriously

 

I don't think that will be a problem....

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Okay most of your post is incomprehensible. I suggest either learning proper English writing skills, or just not writing on here while intoxicated.

But then this quote:

"Remember, “doing it” with one ugly girl can ruin a guy’s entire reputation."

was very 21st Century, you will get far in life with that one. Seriously though you are bringing your and my gender down with that phrase.

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Getting back on topic, anyway...

 

One thing that always struck me about the Thief universe was the fact that the forces of nature (i.e., the pagans) and the forces of "progress" or "technology" (i.e., the Hammers and the Mechanists) were each treated as equally dangerous and frightening in their own way. To me, the Pagans have always represented the most primal fears of human civilization--the fear of the unknown, of the "other," of collapse into barbarity. The Hammers, on the other hand, are disturbing because they represent the worst excesses of human civilization--the police state, corrupt bereaucracy, machine religion, a loss of contact with what it means to be human. Whatever you decide to do with your campaign setting in the Dark Mod, I hope that you keep this basic concepts intact, because it is these opposing ideas that really gives the Thief universe its powerful sense of dramatic tension.

Edited by thestemmer
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To maximius: **what the hell is a "developed" culture?

For starts: one with the wheel. Ironmongery would be nice and how about money. That would be a development (oh I suppose you counted the see shells) hmm don’t be so silly

 

You know that the INJUNS had no such things and where a less developed culture. They tied themselves to stakes during battles so that they would die rather than flee. Yes invention and culture go hand in hand they affect each other (invention, science and culture)

Don’t play pretend about the facts or about the world don’t hate the man. Oh wait in reality now why do they call `whites THE MAN. Why are Anglos in control of heavily influencing most of the known word? Hmm is that because china is so darn great. No! Is it because the Arabic people are so great? No! How about the dark-skinned Africans are they influencing the entire earth? NO! That’s funny isn’t it?

 

 

There are some non-Anglo "races" that you share more of a genetic inheritance with than you do with some other "Anglos." Yes, thats correct, you are more closely related to some non-whites than you are to some other whites.

 

Where did you get the blood sample!!! That is just silly. Don’t pretend to have some greater understanding and wisdom of the lineages of white Anglos did you just finishes reading The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle I don’t think you did so quit pretending to know more than you have actualy researched yourself.

 

Besides this conversation has become borring it was roiginaly intended as a rant about PAGAns in thief so lets just be less silly and more real

 

I just think you cant fix the pagans of thief. that is all becouse they are like Jar Jar Binks to me. Love to hate them. That is all.

 

The rest was just to piss someone off. wich was very wrong of me now that I am fully awake I see the error of my wicked simplton ways please continue the discusion on pagans and leave all the race stuff to the scholers.

Weather I was right about the pagans being gay or not I will put my silly little coments about them away

 

Please forgive this rant it shall not happen again lest I shal die

 

Frea aelmihtig ece Drithen as my witness

 

Love as always

MR

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Oh wait in reality now why do they call `whites THE MAN. Why are Anglos in control of heavily influencing most of the known word? Hmm is that because china is so darn great. No! Is it because the Arabic people are so great? No! How about the dark-skinned Africans are they influencing the entire earth? NO! That’s funny isn’t it?

 

You've disproved your theory that whites are more 'advanced' by posting such shit. :P

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For starts: one with the wheel. Ironmongery would be nice and how about money. That would be a development (oh I suppose you counted the see shells) hmm don’t be so silly

 

You know that the INJUNS had no such things and where a less developed culture. They tied themselves to stakes during battles so that they would die rather than flee. Yes invention and culture go hand in hand they affect each other (invention, science and culture)

Don’t play pretend about the facts or about the world don’t hate the man. Oh wait in reality now why do they call `whites THE MAN. Why are Anglos in control of heavily influencing most of the known word? Hmm is that because china is so darn great. No! Is it because the Arabic people are so great? No! How about the dark-skinned Africans are they influencing the entire earth? NO! That’s funny isn’t it?

 

 

There are some non-Anglo "races" that you share more of a genetic inheritance with than you do with some other "Anglos." Yes, thats correct, you are more closely related to some non-whites than you are to some other whites.

 

Where did you get the blood sample!!! That is just silly. Don’t pretend to have some greater understanding and wisdom of the lineages of white Anglos did you just finishes reading The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle I don’t think you did so quit pretending to know more than you have actualy researched yourself.

 

Besides this conversation has become borring it was roiginaly intended as a rant about PAGAns in thief so lets just be less silly and more real

 

I just think you cant fix the pagans of thief. that is all becouse they are like Jar Jar Binks to me. Love to hate them. That is all.

 

The rest was just to piss someone off. wich was very wrong of me now that I am fully awake I see the error of my wicked simplton ways please continue the discusion on pagans and leave all the race stuff to the scholers.

Weather I was right about the pagans being gay or not I will put my silly little coments about them away

 

 

Cultures in central america (Aztec Mayan) Did not have the wheel, however achieved adavanced hundreds of years that beyond ther European counterparts. When spanish first arived in their city they wrote that creation so extravagant could not even be human. So I don't think wheel is vital, it's just one possible solution for certain habitats. On another note pagan isn't even any real group until modern times it's jsut the classification of the tribal groups that were non christian during the middle ages. Also the man isn't used by other non-white civilizations cause if you forgot...they don't speak english. The tied to stake thing doesn't even make sense.....but ok. Anyways I just wanted to point out if your going to make stupid piss off coments theres alot of valid reasons, no need to make things up

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To MedievalRadley: Learn how to write English and structure sentences, imbecile. Your spelling is atrocious, your grammar is that of a three year old, and you have just proven yourself incapable of anything resembling intelligent thought with your idiotic exposition of "white power" and your gross lack of knowledge regarding history and anthropology. You are hardly an exemplar of superiority of any sort, so I suggest you discontinue your little tirades and learn to speak English.

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That was all very neat. I wonder if it would me a good idea to start this thread fesh. If that is possible. I wish to ask a questions regarding Pagan.

 

Will the Pagans be a polar opposite of the Builders like they where in thief ds?

 

I always disliked how the universe of thief was Pagan vs. Hamarites. Maybe there could be a different way of thinking about it. the Pagans could actually be bad or evil not just opposing flavor of humanity that is just as wrong or just as right as the Builders, while the keepers balance them all. Maybe they could all have separate agendas but they are not opposing ideologies. You know not polar opposites. That is trite.

Edited by Unskilledlaborer
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I agree with Unskilled Laborer. I think their ideologies should not be approached from a "Opposites" perspective, but they should have their own cultures and customs beyond just the fact that they seem to disagree.

Edited by Ombrenuit
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@medievalradley:

 

Hmm, what are the two largest economies in the world right now, the U.S. and Japan? Surely that must be a misprint right? It should say Britain instead, since surely those small brownish people on their funny little island couldn't ever conceive of any money making ideas superior to the ANGLOS, right?

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In summary, "Hahaha, you racist tit, shut up." I don't think anything else needs to be said, it would be too dignifying.

 

Perhaps the reason I'd be reminded of the game structure by a celt and not a lamp is because lamps are everday, Celts are odd. And kind of laughable when they wear their checked trousers. Seriously, extrapolating from a name to an idea is silly - the concept of a T2 pagan is totally different to the concept of a celtic pagan. It seems the only reason one could come up with a celt is in order to retain the tie to the name pagan - if you want to use a different concept, there's no need to keep the name like that :)

--

Somethin' fishy's goin' on here... Come on out, you taffer!

 

~The Fishy Taffer

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I think the non members should respect the fact that this has all been discussed and decided upon by those who are actually making the mod. Not a single idea suggested in this thread was not at some point discussed in the campaign or concept art forums, and arguing won't chage what has already been decided upon. If you don't like the direction the mod is going in, then fine; it's fully moddable. Get to work. This isn't a drive-thru 'make a game the way I want it' forum. :)

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Seriously, extrapolating from a name to an idea is silly - the concept of a T2 pagan is totally different to the concept of a celtic pagan

 

I guess it bears mentioning--yet again--that this is not T2. These are TDM pagans. TDM pagans are groups of primitive, tribal societies that are similar to gauls, basques--and yes--celts.

 

If you can't handle a character with checkered pants (a very common pattern not limited to celts, btw), feel free not to use that model. Maybe the model won't even have checkered pants. It's just concept art, after all.

 

Sheesh, if people have this strong a reaction to deviating from T2's pagans, I can't wait to see what people say when they see the Inventor's Guild.

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