Schroeder In Wales

[Macsen]

Diolch yn fawr Vadrosaul!

 

Rhagfyr hapus i ti hefyd.

[Macsen]

English has some big problems, most seriously the way it is spelled (lots of archaic spellings that are totally different to the pronounciation of the word) and some wierd inconsistencies that people who learn English as a second language rarely master.

 

That is a problem in English which makes it difficult for learners (and most users when they mispronounce words like 'banal' and 'cache'). In Welsh a word is spoken the exact way its written, as far a I can tell (trying to think of some exceptions).

 

Interesting story on the BBC website today about how children find maths easier when doing it through the Welsh language. Its easier for a child to understand that the numbers 10 and 3 make 13 because it is the same in writing and in speech. Un+deg+tri - One+ten+three = 13. Dau+ddeg - Two+ten = 20. Cant+dau+ddeg+un - Hundred+two+ten+one = 121.

 

However, I think the Japanese system is the easiest of all, especially their system for months; just onemoon, twomoon, threemoon...

[OrbWeaver]

That is a problem in English which makes it difficult for learners (and most users when they mispronounce words like 'banal' and 'cache'). In Welsh a word is spoken the exact way its written, as far a I can tell (trying to think of some exceptions).

 

Cache and banal are both French words. This is a problem I experience when trying to speak or understand French - I can read it OK (with a dictionary to hand), but trying to work out how it is pronounced when a large proportion of the letters are silent is a real challenge if you're not used to it.

 

However, I think the Japanese system is the easiest of all, especially their system for months; just onemoon, twomoon, threemoon...

 

My father is trying to learn Mandarin and apparently they have different number-words for long thin things, short fat things and so on. I don't know how you're supposed to count something if you don't know what it looks like.

[Macsen]

Cache and banal are both French words. This is a problem I experience when trying to speak or understand French - I can read it OK (with a dictionary to hand), but trying to work out how it is pronounced when a large proportion of the letters are silent is a real challenge if you're not used to it.

 

Yes, they're english words borrowed from the French, but the pronounciation is not adapted for English use. There are a number broowed from Welsh: clutter, crowd, flannel, flismy, javelin, maggot and penguin, for example.

 

My father is trying to learn Mandarin and apparently they have different number-words for long thin things, short fat things and so on. I don't know how you're supposed to count something if you don't know what it looks like.

 

Sounds cool! Plenty of oppertunity for accidental insult as a learner.

[Vadrosaul]

Diolch yn fawr Vadrosaul!

 

Rhagfyr hapus i ti hefyd.

 

Umm thank you

 

You'll need to translate. The only Welsh online translator I could find wasn't operational

[obscurus]

Don't get me wrong Macsen, I am all for linguistic diversity and multilingualism (my wife is teaching me Dutch ATM, and I have a penchant for studying Latin) , but there is a point where a doctor gives up trying to perform CPR on a patient that has stopped breathing for a while, because they know it is futile, and even if they succeed, the patient may be so brain damaged they would have been better off not revived.

 

The same goes for languages. At some point they are beyond saving, and even if they can be revived, it will be in a heavily bastardised form that bears little resemblence to the original language (just look at Modern Hebrew).

 

OK, I will stop suggesting that Welsh is one of those languages, maybe you can successfully revive it and make it flourish again, I'm not Welsh, nor have I ever been there, so my comments are just hypothetical pontificating, and I will now retreat back into ambivalence....

[Macsen]

Umm thank you

 

You'll need to translate. The only Welsh online translator I could find wasn't operational

 

Diolch yn fawr Vadrosaul - Thak you very much Vadrosaul.

 

Rhagfyr hapus i ti hefyd - A happy December to you too.

 

Nadolig llawen! - Merry Christmas!

 

but there is a point where a doctor gives up trying to perform CPR on a patient that has stopped breathing for a while, because they know it is futile, and even if they succeed, the patient may be so brain damaged they would have been better off not revived.

 

Well Welsh hasn't stopped breathing for a while. Pretty much as many people speak it now as have ever spoken it. Its just English that got big, not Welsh that got small.

 

It's interesting to note that two Celtic languages, Cornish and Manx, have actually come back from the dead. Cornish was dead so long not a single person knew how to speak it, now 3,500 people speak it. It doesn't make sense, but there you go.

[Macsen]

I just had a look at the 2001 census. 37.7% of children between 3 and 15 years old in Wales can speak the language! 40.8% of Welsh speakers are between the ages of 5-15. If the languge was dying wouldn't the higher percentage of speakers be amongst the older generation?

 

It sees the answer to the revival of the language is to make as many babies as possible. I knew polygamy would be justified some day.

[obscurus]

Well, it looks like Welsh is much healthier than I thought....

 

The other thing you Welshies could do is follow the lead of the French, who have a national body that defines what the French language is and regulates its usage. Interestingly, French spoken outside of Paris can differ quite markedly from the 'Standard' French dialect, to the point that in some regions of France, people speak a version of French that is virtually unintelligible to mainstream French speakers. The same could be said of English - most English speakers have no trouble understanding Received Pronounciation English, but I'll be buggered if I can understand half of what someone from Liverpool or Yorkshire is saying. I won't mention what New Zealanders did to the English language

 

I guess the best way to guarantee the persistence of a language and protect it from the natural drift languages normally undergo is to define and standardise it officially, and then effectively force people to use it as their main everyday language, discouraging the adoption of loan words or slang where possible.

 

Some languages have managed to survive with very little change for a long time, for example Euskara (Basque), but it is considerably more common for languages to change markedly from one generation to the next - most languages effectively become a different language over as little as 5 generations or so, unless the population that speaks the language is very large, or rigorously discourages language change.

[sparhawk]

Diolch yn fawr Vadrosaul - Thak you very much Vadrosaul.

 

Rhagfyr hapus i ti hefyd - A happy December to you too.

 

Nadolig llawen! - Merry Christmas!

 

Oh! And I thought you were just clearing your throat before you start to say something.

[Gildoran]

Interesting story on the BBC website today about how children find maths easier when doing it through the Welsh language. Its easier for a child to understand that the numbers 10 and 3 make 13 because it is the same in writing and in speech. Un+deg+tri - One+ten+three = 13. Dau+ddeg - Two+ten = 20. Cant+dau+ddeg+un - Hundred+two+ten+one = 121.

 

I've taken some Japanese language classes, and its numbers work exactly the same way you've described Welsh.

 

Also, although Japanese has LOTS of counters (suffixes added to numbers) for a wide range of things (to the extent that there are dictionaries listing counters), there's also a general purpose counter that could be used if you have no idea what something looks like. I'd guess Mandarin might have the same.

[oDDity]

Well, it looks like Welsh is much healthier than I thought....

 

The other thing you Welshies could do is follow the lead of the French, who have a national body that defines what the French language is and regulates its usage. Interestingly, French spoken outside of Paris can differ quite markedly from the 'Standard' French dialect, to the point that in some regions of France, people speak a version of French that is virtually unintelligible to mainstream French speakers. The same could be said of English - most English speakers have no trouble understanding Received Pronounciation English, but I'll be buggered if I can understand half of what someone from Liverpool or Yorkshire is saying. I won't mention what New Zealanders did to the English language

 

I guess the best way to guarantee the persistence of a language and protect it from the natural drift languages normally undergo is to define and standardise it officially, and then effectively force people to use it as their main everyday language, discouraging the adoption of loan words or slang where possible.

 

No, that's a terrible idea. It's just language snobbery. Most of what they do it trying to keep English words out of French. You have to let languages develop naturally, you can't have board meetings where a few people decide.

[Macsen]

The other thing you Welshies could do is follow the lead of the French, who have a national body that defines what the French language is and regulates its usage.

 

The Welsh language is pretty much regulated naturally by the Eisteddfod - the highlight of the Welsh year. If you can't write or speak proper Welsh poetry or prose you won't win anything. The Eisteddfod yr Urdd (Guild) for under 25s ensures that children are embroiled in Welsh cultural traditions at an early age. I can't think of many Welsh speaking friends who haven't been on the Eisteddfod stage at some point (you have to get through several local and county competitions before being allowed to compete). I've been twice, and got second twice... boo!

 

But I don't think having some kind of board decide what is good Welsh and bad Welsh is that good an idea. One of the best books ever releaed in Welsh, Un Nos Ola Leuad, depends on its colloquial, flowing speech to create a dream like atmosphere. Good Welsh is pretty much what sounds good on paper.

 

Its probably worth noting that the use of English i becoming increasingly standardised. Try to change words in English and the spell checker will tell you off. The only new word I've noticed recently is th horrible 'bling bling'.

 

Interestingly, French spoken outside of Paris can differ quite markedly from the 'Standard' French dialect, to the point that in some regions of France, people speak a version of French that is virtually unintelligible to mainstream French speakers.

 

Yes, I was trying to understand two farmers on a train once. I came to the conclusion that they were speaking an entirely different language, but they were actually speaking French.

 

There are three different Welsh dialects, 'Gog' - Northern, 'Hwntw' - them over there, that is spoken in the South, and Patagonian, which has borrowed a few spanish words. I'm a 'Gog' myself, but because my family comes from the South I can speak 'Hwntw' pretty well. Gogs and hwntws always take the piss out of each others accents.

 

Some languages have managed to survive with very little change for a long time, for example Euskara (Basque), but it is considerably more common for languages to change markedly from one generation to the next - most languages effectively become a different language over as little as 5 generations or so, unless the population that speaks the language is very large, or rigorously discourages language change.

 

I think Welsh has changed a bit, though not as much as English. Welsh from the 12th entury is easier to Welsh speakers than Chaucer is to modern English speakers. I think the difference is that works in 'Middle Welsh' as it is called is still popular with Welsh speakers, like the Mabinogi.

 

Oh! And I thought you were just clearing your throat before you start to say something.

 

Welsh sounds far harsher on paper than it actually does when you're speaking it. The letters make entirely different sounds in Welsh than they do in English.

 

Anyway, I'd have thought you'd have heard so many poor jokes about German you'd be careful not to make ill-informed jokes about other languages.

 

I've taken some Japanese language classes, and its numbers work exactly the same way you've described Welsh.

 

Yes, its the same in Korean and other eastern languages I think.

[sparhawk]

Anyway, I'd have thought you'd have heard so many poor jokes about German you'd be careful not to make ill-informed jokes about other languages.

 

Actually I don't really particularly care wether somebody makes fun of my language. In fact they do this all the time here, because I'm from Austria and I live here in Germany in an area where they have a different dialect. If somebody makes fun of that, and it is funny, then I laugh just the same.

[Macsen]

Actually I don't really particularly care wether somebody makes fun of my language. In fact they do this all the time here, because I'm from Austria and I live here in Germany in an area where they have a different dialect. If somebody makes fun of that, and it is funny, then I laugh just the same.

 

It's very hard to tell on a forum - things like expression and tone of voice are very important to a joke.

[Macsen]

oDDity has inspired me to start a new website - They All Speak English?

[Gildoran]

*gasps* You don't all shag sheep?!

 

Nice site.