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Irenices

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I was just wondering if you are going to make blackjacking opponents more like in thief 1/2 where you could KO them reguardless of there alert level as long as you could sneak up and get them in the back of the head, or more like DS where once they where looking for you they become unKOable and unBackstabbable?

Id much perfer it to be T 1/2 style. Also im hopeing you guys make it so you gotta get em in the back of the head none of that in the butt or in the shoulder shinanigis from said games.

 

Thanks for your time

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How does that work then? YOu knock then out through their huge, thick metal helmets, with a chainmail coif underneath it do you?

I suppose you can also use a blackjack with that power to knock holes in walls instead of finding a door.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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No way, the force of the blow would not be transfered through three layers of sturdy material - the helmet, the chainmail and the skull - to the brain. That's kind of the point in wearing a helmet in the first place.

A blackjack would do about as much serious damage as a fly landing on them.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Since we've already discussed this a hundred times and have a documented conclusion, I assume Oddity is spreading his own personal brand of fun and frivolity. It's the Christmas season, after all.

 

To answer the question, however, KOing will be more difficult than the original Thief games. You won't be able to blackjack alert guards (though civilians are another matter). KOing guards with helmets will be more difficult than KOing those without. Some guards cannot be KOed at all.

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You don't need to modify the source for TDM to do this. If you don't like it in a map you can easily change it yourself, and since we provide gameplay options as well, you don't even need to change it in a map or def file, you can simply go to the gameplay options and set No KO's in the GUI.

 

In fact, this makes this discussion even more annoying, because Oddity is well aware of these settings, and thus there would be no need to rehearse it again and again except to sow discension.

Gerhard

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No way, the force of the blow would not be transfered through three layers of sturdy material - the helmet, the chainmail and the skull - to the brain. That's kind of the point in wearing a helmet in the first place.

A blackjack would do about as much serious damage as a fly landing on them.

 

It depends on the type of helmet. The medieval helmet worn by Thief guards is the sort designed for protecting against sword and arrow attacks, which are high in penetration but low in kinetic energy.

 

A heavy blunt object like a blackjack results in a very different form of impact, against which a hard metal layer in direct contact with the skull would provide little protection.

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It depends on the type of helmet. The medieval helmet worn by Thief guards is the sort designed for protecting against sword and arrow attacks, which are high in penetration but low in kinetic energy.

 

A heavy blunt object like a blackjack results in a very different form of impact, against which a hard metal layer in direct contact with the skull would provide little protection.

 

 

I think a lot of those who wore such helmets also wore small padded caps to protect their pates from the metal but your point stands, a heavy smashing blow from a weighted sap or black jack can deliver enough force to travel through those layers and violently rattle the brain, which is what KOs you IIRC. Of course, smashing a metal pot with a lead weight is going to make a crap load of noise, a factor that could nicely limit the use of BJing without removing it entirely. And of course some helmets would be invulnerable to such weapons but those guards would have to wear heavier helmets or more padding, which would tend to slow them down.

 

I always thought it would be fun to give the Thief a blow gun to KO guards. It would not make it too easy, you would have to be very close, make sure you either caught the falling body or that noone else was around, and best of all you would have to hit them in exposed skin, which means in the face, which means you would have to be hiding withing their vision cone in order to target them, making the odds of you being spotted greater. Its a really Thiefy weapon too, compact and silent. Just a thought.

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THe blackjack we're talking about is a leather sack filled with lead shot. It wouldn't transfer through iron, and it wouldn't make much nosie either.

THe engery would get spread out radially though the curved metal, the way an arch supports a heavy weight sitting on top of it.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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THe blackjack we're talking about is a leather sack filled with lead shot. It wouldn't transfer through iron, and it wouldn't make much nosie either.

THe engery would get spread out radially though the curved metal, the way an arch supports a heavy weight sitting on top of it.

 

Against a blackjack:

- Mail would do little - hold a metal mesh over your head and pound it with a rock, see if it helps. Mail is intended to protect against edged, and to a lesser extent pointed, weapons.

- A helmet (the metal itself) would do little. It does help spread the force out over the contact area, for this reason it is of benefit against crushing attacks that might break skin or bone, however a blackjack, while capable of doing nasty damage in this fashion, does not use this mechanism to cause loss of consciousness. Hold a metal bowl on your head and hit it gently with a hammer - see if you still feel force of the impact.

- Concussion results from the brain hitting the inside of the skull. The blackjack transfers its force into movement of the skull, so the greatest piece of protection is going to come from anything that dimishes this force, which will be from non-rigid bodies that convert the kinetic energy of the jack into distortion of their form. Hence padding under the helmet will have the greatest defensive effect against being ko'd (why bike helmets have crushable foam). However, I think it's not unreasonable to assume that most of this padding will be present on the crown of the skull, intended as a defense against overhead killing blows, and so a crack from behind against the back of the helmet by a skilled blackjack wielder would still be able to deal the necessary force.

 

If we can accept that blackjacking will routinely knock out individuals withough causing serious harm and frequently death, then I think accepting that a helmeted guard can be knocked out requires substantially less suspension of disbelief.

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If we change the blackjack to a metal bar, then it might work, but the current blackjack is a leather sack filled with shot, and that was not designed for use against helmets, it eas designed for use againt bare skin. The whole point of its design it so it doesn't do too much damge while still hurting.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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If we change the blackjack to a metal bar, then it might work, but the current blackjack is a leather sack filled with shot, and that was not designed for use against helmets, it eas designed for use againt bare skin. The whole point of its design it so it doesn't do too much damge while still hurting.

 

Although I agree with you that a sack of shot would not make as loud a noise as a lump of lead, I still think its possible that the majority of its energy of motion would transfer through the metal into the skull. True, the curve of the helmet would displace SOME of the force but then you only need a bit of force to bounce a brain around inside a skull. A bag of shot that weighs 1 pound moving at 3 feet a second delivers nearly the same amount of force as a one pound lump of lead moving at the same velocity, although the individual pieces of shot would lose some forward energy due to slipping and moving. But not much AFAIK.

Edited by Maximius
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THe engery would get spread out radially though the curved metal, the way an arch supports a heavy weight sitting on top of it.

 

An arch protects whatever is beneath it because it transmits its weight (and the weight of whatever is on top of it) directly into the ground, by which it is rigidly supported.

 

Unless you are wearing a space suit, the helmet is only supported by your head, therefore any force which is not absorbed by the helmet itself (and a metal helmet will absorb almost nothing) will be trasmitted directly onto the skull.

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Unless some of us have the equipment to test this (a 15th century replic iron helmet and a leather sack filled with metal shot) and are willig to be whacked on the head to see if it knocks them out, and are furthur willing to have the whole thing filmed for the amusment of the rest of us, there's no point arguing about it.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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