Rl "water Arrow"?

[oDDity]

That's an advantage of gel - the fact it doesn't soak half the fucking room with water.

Try to keep up.

Yet another advanatge, is that the torch couldn't be relit, sicne it will be covered with a waxy coagulated covering of gel.

It wouldn't be that suspicious either, if a guard came along, saw the torch out, tried to relight it and it wouldn't light, I doubt he'd be able to see the waxy coating on it - unlike if half the floor and wall was soaked in water.

[sparhawk]

I see. And of course the guard wouldn't think about it. Why exactly shoudl teh guard NOT notice the gel? Is it invisible? If it holds some fire to it, to relight it, then it would usually see it, assuming that it takes the torch down to relight it. Guards usually don't carray the poles with them to religth torches. Servants would notice it because if the torch doesn't relight it would need to be replaced.

[oDDity]

The residue left from the coagulated gel coating wouldn't be that visiblel.

Sure, a servant might go get a new torch and replace it in real life, but I doubt we'll be inroducing that action into the game, so you're left with a torch that can't be relit.

Fsce it, gel arrows are superior to water in every way - I see requiring more accuracy as superior as well, since it introduces more skill and difficulty to the process.

Hitting a flame torch in thief is about as difficult as hitting a barn door with a shotgun.

[OrbWeaver]

I hardly see that the distinction is all that important given that the only in-game differences between a gel arrow and a water arrow will be the name and a slight change in the particle effect.

[Subjective Effect]

Seconded.

[Macsen]

I hardly think some water on the floor would be that suspicious in a medieval setting. Roofs leak, buildings are damp, servants drop things and untrained animals piss against the wall. And torches always splutter out anyway. Strange waxy gel just makes it far more obvious that some dark treachery is afoot.

[Domarius]

Mmm... I'm more convinced by oDDity's arguments on the issue.

 

Though I think I like torches being so easy to douse...

[oDDity]

I hardly think some water on the floor would be that suspicious in a medieval setting. Roofs leak, buildings are damp, servants drop things and untrained animals piss against the wall. And torches always splutter out anyway. Strange waxy gel just makes it far more obvious that some dark treachery is afoot.

 

THe combination of a puddle of water on the floor below a torch that has gone out, leaves you with a rather more simple deduction than 2+2.

I don't think that even in medieval times they placed torches under leaks in the roof

 

Then there's the noise of a water arrow - a huge hissing noise that would travel far.

Gel, because of the much lower surface area, and slower smothering action, makes no more that a low sizzle.

A torch can be relit after being splashed with water, since the water can't soak into the oil soaked head.

Gel hardens on the head of the torch and stops it being relit.

There's also the amount of water necessary to put out a torch,. which could never be held int he tip of an arrow.

The amount of gel required is far less.

[Macsen]

How about this then - the fact that no one brought this issue up in the 8 years since Thief was released shows that it really isn't an issue at all.

 

A mysterious gel in a medieval setting creates more questions than answers. Does the gel have a casing around it? If not, why doesn't it stick and run about the quiver? If it has a casing around it, won't it just glue to the smashed casing anyway? And wouldn't the guard notice the big arrow dripping with gel that's sticking out of the torch? How is this gel made?

 

Yes, the water arrow requires suspension of disbelief. But so does this gel arrow, just in different ways, and with none of the old fashioned simplicity of the water arrow.

[oDDity]

Eh? Are you kidding?

There's nothing mysterious about gelatine, it's been around for thousands of years, and I'm sure if anyone wanted to tweak it with other ingedients to specifically make it good for extinguishing torches, they could.

It's held in a sac attatched to the arrow tip, the arrow shaft smashes the sac on impact and the gel oozes out.

It's made by boiling up the skin and various guts of animals.

It's all elementary (or so I thought until seeing that certain Welshmen and Austrians need furthur explaination)

[Subjective Effect]

I also like the idea of relightable torches and guards or servants that relight them.

[oDDity]

Lol, you're supposed to be a fucking thief in someone else's house, why the hell would you like the idea of them being able to relight the torches you extinguish?

[Macsen]

It's held in a sac attatched to the arrow tip, the arrow shaft smashes the sac on impact and the gel oozes out.

 

So now, rather than some water on the floor, the guard sees a big sack! How could the arrow smash the sack? Where does the sack go after this process takes place?

 

Medieval gelatine was like jelly. It wouldn't seep in the way you think it would, just plop.

 

Sory oDD, but you're replacing something for no reason with another equally ridiculous solution.

[Subjective Effect]

Jeepers oDDity, get out of thief role and back into mod developer role.

 

I like the idea because it adds to gameplay.

 

If we took out all the things that a thief would dislike from the game there would be no guards, locks, need to sneak or need for tools. Heck, you'd just have a giant pile of magic refilling loot. What the in the hell ARE you on about?

[Macsen]

I agree with Sir Effect that guards who relight torches are a good idea. I thought you wanted to make this game more challenging, oDD?

[oDDity]

This does make it harder, since as I've said from the start, the shot is more difficult to make.

The guards relighting torches doesn't make it more difficult, since all you have to do is shoot it out again.

So now, rather than some water on the floor, the guard sees a big sack! How could the arrow smash the sack? Where does the sack go after this process takes place?

 

Medieval gelatine was like jelly. It wouldn't seep in the way you think it would, just plop.

 

Sory oDD, but you're replacing something for no reason with another equally ridiculous solution.

Other ingedients can be added to gelatine to change its consistency. It doesn't require some modern scientific method.

What happens to the sac and arrow - you pick it up you idiot.

Any more dumb questions?

[Macsen]

What happens to the sac and arrow - you pick it up you idiot.

Any more dumb questions?

 

So every time I shoot a water arrow I have to scamper over to the torch like a fetching dog to get this stupid sack back? What's the point of having a gel arrow at all if I have to run over to the torch anyway before the guard arrives? I might as well just carry a damp cloth.

 

Any more dumb ideas before we can consign this idea to the trash pile?

[sparhawk]

It's all elementary (or so I thought until seeing that certain Welshmen and Austrians need furthur explaination)

 

Even if gelatine is around so long, attaching it to an arrow with a sacm, would mean that the arrow would fly like shit, so there is not much chance that somebody could hit rather small targets with any kind of accuracy, if the arrows trjectory is influenced by a bouncing sac.

[sparhawk]

Lol, you're supposed to be a fucking thief in someone else's house, why the hell would you like the idea of them being able to relight the torches you extinguish?

 

It's supposed to be a game, remember?

[oDDity]

IT may be a game, but that's no reason for introducing a bunch of deliberately ridiculous and contradictory premises, when other options are available.

As for the shape of the arrowhead, it could quite easly be set in the shape of a cone, and be perfectly aerodynamic..

So every time I shoot a water arrow I have to scamper over to the torch like a fetching dog to get this stupid sack back? What's the point of having a gel arrow at all if I have to run over to the torch anyway before the guard arrives? I might as well just carry a damp cloth.

 

Any more dumb ideas before we can consign this idea to the trash pile?

 

You don't have to pick it up, since you've just made it dark, and the guard won't be able to relight the torch, so he'd almost never see the used arrow anyway.

The broken sac would still be attached to the shaft, and be lying on the floor near the torch.

IF you wanted to clear you evidence as you went along, it would be an easy matter to go and retrive the used arrow once the torch is out, since you now have the safety of darkness.

It's becoming really irritating when you argue for the sake of arguing, even though you know you're wrong.

I really haven't got the time to answer you deliberately obnoxious questions. Some of us do actual work on this mod you know.

[Napalm]

Truthfully, on the matter of realism, I think Spar just pointed out the key issue you keep missing. An arrow....with a sack of anything....on the tip....that would be large enough to put out a fire...no matter how small that may be...would be a retarded waste of time...as oppsed to just carrying...the sac....or a wet rag. Seriously, why would you just throw a sac at the flame, or just walk over. Why would you use an arrow...?? The whole point is it's just a gameplay thing, and since both a gel and water arrow have the same effect on the game, it doesn't really matter.Also the noise doesnt really matter, because chances are both are going to make the loud THUNK of the arrow hitting whatever is behind the torch. This is also ignoring the multiple chances of the arrow not hitting the flame of the torch, but another part of it, knocking it over, and burning the whole housedown There goes stealth . So let just not worry about the thing, and whichever particle effect is wanted.... it doesn't really matter.

[Macsen]

It's becoming really irritating when you argue for the sake of arguing, even though you know you're wrong.

I really haven't got the time to answer you deliberately obnoxious questions. Some of us do actual work on this mod you know.

 

It's you who argues for the sake of arguing, remember? You said so last week. And since this is in the 'off-topic' section, I'd be entitled to my say any which ways. I see a disturbing trend towards trying to gag the opinions of those you don't agree with among some members of this forum.

 

The fact of the matter is that this idea is crap and there's simply no reason to implement it. You're just replacing a puddle of water with a large sack of goo, one wouldn't be supicious at all, the other practically screams 'Thief in the House!' With the blackjack, the water arrow is probably the only thing there's simply no point changing.

[Subjective Effect]

Why are we even talking about this?

 

Unless the gel arrow is superior to the water arrow in some way there is no need for it at all. WTF?

[oDDity]

Haven't you read the fucking thread? The gelatine arrow is superior in every way.

It's you who argues for the sake of arguing, remember? You said so last week. And since this is in the 'off-topic' section, I'd be entitled to my say any which ways. I see a disturbing trend towards trying to gag the opinions of those you don't agree with among some members of this forum.

 

The fact of the matter is that this idea is crap and there's simply no reason to implement it. You're just replacing a puddle of water with a large sack of goo, one wouldn't be supicious at all, the other practically screams 'Thief in the House!' With the blackjack, the water arrow is probably the only thing there's simply no point changing.

 

You've never contributed anything to any ideas thread anyway, so I'm shouldn't be surprised you haven't started with this one.

You admitted yourself that you deliberately disagree with everything I say on purpose, becasue you don't like my attitude, and that's exactly what you're doing here, even when everyone else agrees it's a good idea (except the blind, diehard, ignorant 'do it like Thief' dribbling fanboys of course)

[sparhawk]

Why are we even talking about this?

 

Because Oddity refuses to see the stupidity of his proprosal, and keeps arguing as if it actually did make sense.