Rl "water Arrow"?

[Subjective Effect]

Sorry oDDity, I've been reading the thread and I don't see where or how it's superior. I'm all for change and so don't even start with the whole "fanboy" faggery - I've suggested and backed many things that are very different/improved over Thief so you'd better check your facts before you start suggesting rubbish.

[Macsen]

Haven't you read the fucking thread? The gelatine arrow is superior in every way.

 

I have shown this not to be the case. It is a crap idea, admit it, let it go.

 

You admitted yourself that you deliberately disagree with everything I say on purpose, becasue you don't like my attitude

 

Learn to read. What I said was this: "When you start going off an one of your childish rants that bring to mind a toddler screaming because he isn't allowed to have any more jelly it severely undermines your own argument. If you were to argue properly and reasonably for your suggestions you could sway the team to your point of view."

 

even when everyone else agrees it's a good idea

 

Again with the 'everyone'. I'm not even the only person in this thread that thinks the idea is crap. I presume this 'everyone' comes from the same place as the royal 'we' you keep referring to yourself with. You might be emotionally unbalanced, but I'm guessing you're not schizophrenic.

[oDDity]

No Macsen, you haven't shown anything 'not to be the case' all you've done is automatically gainsayed eveything I write, like some kind of fucked up parrot.

Sorry oDDity, I've been reading the thread and I don't see where or how it's superior. I'm all for change and so don't even start with the whole "fanboy" faggery - I've suggested and backed many things that are very different/improved over Thief so you'd better check your facts before you start suggesting rubbish.

 

OK then then for the third time, in summary, the gel arrow is better because:

- makes 10% of the mess

- makes 10% of the noise

- the torch cannot be relit

- doesn't require any 'magic'

- you actualy have to bother to aim properly at the torch instead of in the general direction of it, so it adds playerskill to the equation..

[Subjective Effect]

Points 1,2,4 and 5 are just arbitary properties that you could add to a foam, powder, anti-oxygen miasma arrow or whatever. We can just have this with water arrows, and what is wrong with magic? TDM world is full of magic.

 

Point 3 makes it LESS stealthy since someone trying to light the torch with think "WTF is this residue?".

 

There is no reason FOR having gel arrows. There is nothing in the definition or description which makes them superior and they just seem like silly "gloop" arrows to me. And aren't we having the water arrow make other things grow? - something which people will have to suspend disbelief with even more with gel arrows.

[Macsen]

- makes 10% of the mess

 

Leaves non-absorbent goo everywhere.

 

- makes 10% of the noise

 

Makes a big squelch/popping noise as the sack is pierced followed by a plop as this jelly-like substence falls on the torch.

 

- the torch cannot be relit

 

A negative point IMO.

 

- doesn't require any 'magic'

 

Last time I checked water wasn't magic. Even if it was, magic is commonplace in this world.

 

This raises another interesting point. Are we going to be shooting zombies with holy goo, now?

[sparhawk]

[OrbWeaver]

I am not sure that "gel" with the properties that oDDity envisions would even have been available in medieval times. The sort of gelatin that is produced by boiling animal products is dense and sticky or even solid, not an expanding gel that would smother a flame.

[SneaksieDave]

The good thing about this thread is that it shows those who don't have access to the private forums exactly what happens to every single thread within said private forums.

[sparhawk]

This would be a good time to hide the thread.

[Macsen]

The good thing about this thread is that it shows those who don't have access to the private forums exactly what happens to every single thread within said private forums.

Well, it's a testament to the overall quality of this mod that such bad ideas are shot down so quickly.

[sparhawk]

A testament is something that takes action after somebody was killed, right?

[Macsen]

A testament is something that takes action after somebody was killed, right?

Yeah, but it also means 'Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence'. I just use particular words to sound wise and philosophical.

[oDDity]

Leaves non-absorbent goo everywhere.

'Everywhere'? - what, you mean it covers every inch of the entire level in gelatine?

It leaves very small amounts which dry almost instantly, as opposed to the wall, torch and floor below being soaked in water...

Makes a big squelch/popping noise as the sack is pierced followed by a plop as this jelly-like substence falls on the torch.

Lol, a litle sac of geletine with a thin skin makes a 'big squelch/popping noise'

It wouldn't even be audble.

The water arrow would definitely make a hissing noise that would be heard several rooms away, even if you could get enough water into something that woud fit on the end of an arrow, which you couldn't. PLus there's the sound of the crystal shattering on top of that.

You may as well just take a trumpet along with you and blow a fanfaire.

A negative point IMO.

Yes, in your opinon, but that doesn't mean much, does it?

There's nothing positive about having to continually extinguish the same torch. THat's a lazy and skilless way to try to manage the players water arrow stock.

A far better way is to make the target small and hard to hit.

Last time I checked water wasn't magic. Even if it was, magic is commonplace in this world.

The arrow heads are water crystals you fool, they are the essence of magic.

Magic may be commonplace in the Thief wolrd, it's yet to be established exactly how much magic there is in the TDM world.

 

This raises another interesting point. Are we going to be shooting zombies with holy goo, now?

THat never worked for me anyway. It seems to me you could dip a broadhead or anything else in holy water and shoot it at a zombie. What's a water arrow got to do with it?

[sparhawk]

I know what it means, but the implication is there.

[oDDity]

I am not sure that "gel" with the properties that oDDity envisions would even have been available in medieval times. The sort of gelatin that is produced by boiling animal products is dense and sticky or even solid, not an expanding gel that would smother a flame.

 

THere's nothing in gel that couldn't have been made 500 years ago. That's a pathetic argument anyway considering some of the other modern things they have in Thief, to say they couldn't have had something as simple as gel.

[sparhawk]

Advancements in the TDM (it's not Thief) universe are made in the thechnological area, but not in the cooking area.

[oDDity]

Well, call it chemistry then. We do have an inventors guild after all, and they get up to all sorts of things, not just inventing mechanical gadgets.

[Macsen]

It leaves very small amounts which dry almost instantly, as opposed to the wall, torch and floor below being soaked in water...

 

So you have bits of crusty jelly all over the wall, torch and floor instead of some water? I see puddles of water on the floor every now again, my first instinct is not that someone has broken in, but that it's been raining/pipes leaking/etcetra. If I saw boiled animals splattered liberally all over a wall I'd be a wee bit more suspicious.

 

It wouldn't even be audble.

 

Prove it. Take some haggis, attach an arrow to it and test it out. Hear the wet, sticky slap of all that goo as it hits the torch, and the blubbery fart as the sack rips open and all that yummy jelly sucks its way down into a big, nasty puddle. Then try it with a water balloon.

 

Yes, in your opinon, but that doesn't mean much, does it?

 

My opinion counts because I have mastered the art of rational discourse. No matter how many models you make, if you sound like a gibbering fool people won't listen to you.

 

There's nothing positive about having to continually extinguish the same torch. THat's a lazy and skilless way to try to manage the players water arrow stock.

 

Personally I prefer good sneaking gameplay and AI that act realistically to pointless tests of luck/skill.

 

The arrow heads are water crystals you fool, they are the essence of magic.

 

If I recall correctly some game called Thief had water crystals, but since this isn't that game our water can be stored in any anything we sit fit. The 'essence' of magic, eh?

 

Magic may be commonplace in the Thief world, it's yet to be established exactly how much magic there is in the TDM world.

 

Your point being? It's fantasy; magic is there if we really need it.

 

THat never worked for me anyway. It seems to me you could dip a broadhead or anything else in holy water and shoot it at a zombie. What's a water arrow got to do with it?

 

It's holy water. What does water have to do with it? Um, um, I can't think... * falls over from cognitive exhaustion*

[Springheel]

OK then then for the third time, in summary, the gel arrow is better because:

- makes 10% of the mess

- makes 10% of the noise

- the torch cannot be relit

- doesn't require any 'magic'

- you actualy have to bother to aim properly at the torch instead of in the general direction of it, so it adds playerskill to the equation..

 

The mess is entirely irrelevant. If anything is going to alert a guard, it's the arrow shaft, not whether the tip held water or goo. And yes, you can 'go retrieve the shaft' just as easily with either type.

 

As I recall, we had already come up with a non-magical alternative to crystal water arrows:

 

"Water Arrow: With the number of furnaces and steam engines in the city, fire is always a serious danger. Combined with the fear that an enemy nation might one day steal the recipe to greek fire, the Inventor's Guild was charged with developing something that could extinguish the fire. The result is a highly potent form of water. A small amount is enough to extinguish a sizable flame. Attached to arrows for easy delivery, fire brigades now use these water arrows to put out fires on roofs and other hard-to-access locations. Most nobles keep a few handy in case fire were ever to get out of control in their homes."

 

This highly potent "form of water" is some kind of chemical construct, obviously, that happens to operate like real water (it splashes, it falls, it even makes plants grow). It isn't "magic" and it isn't like Thief (it uses your arrow model, in fact).

 

There's absolutely no reason to make it gel.

[Subjective Effect]

Close the thread then. No-one likes it and that's that. I don't moan that no-one likes my bodkins.

[sparhawk]

Well, we can always continue the thread with bodkins, and why they are a crazy idea.

[oDDity]

So you have bits of crusty jelly all over the wall, torch and floor instead of some water? I see puddles of water on the floor every now again, my first instinct is not that someone has broken in, but that it's been raining/pipes leaking/etcetra. If I saw boiled animals splattered liberally all over a wall I'd be a wee bit more suspicious.

I'm not sure what bizarre idea you have of houses in the past, that they were all full of puddles of water, and when torches went out it was normal for them to be soaked in water.

That's maybe how you live in Wales, but the rest of the world isn't like that, believe me.

THe advantage of gel is that only a small amout is required, just enough to coat the head of the torch, and some of that is consumed by the fire, what's left dries quickly and is transparent. Virtually invisible in other words..

Prove it. Take some haggis, attach an arrow to it and test it out. Hear the wet, sticky slap of all that goo as it hits the torch, and the blubbery fart as the sack rips open and all that yummy jelly sucks its way down into a big, nasty puddle. Then try it with a water balloon.

Those things are all far bigger than the gel sac on the arrow, and have a thicker skin, so obviosuly they make more noise.

 

Personally I prefer good sneaking gameplay and AI that act realistically to pointless tests of luck/skill.

THe AI behave in exactly the same way with the gel arrow. They could still try to relight the torch, but would be unable to, and from the perspective of the character you're playing you wouldn't want them to relight it anyway, so it's more realistic.

 

If I recall correctly some game called Thief had water crystals, but since this isn't that game our water can be stored in any anything we sit fit. The 'essence' of magic, eh?

There's no way ordinary water could be used for this purpose. far too miuch is required.

Your point being? It's fantasy; magic is there if we really need it.

It's holy water. What does water have to do with it? Um, um, I can't think... * falls over from cognitive exhaustion*

How the fuck can holy water get into a water crystal just be dipping it in a font?

If no water can leak out of the crystal then none can get in either.

[oDDity]

The mess is entirely irrelevant. If anything is going to alert a guard, it's the arrow shaft, not whether the tip held water or goo. And yes, you can 'go retrieve the shaft' just as easily with either type.

 

As I recall, we had already come up with a non-magical alternative to crystal water arrows:

 

"Water Arrow: With the number of furnaces and steam engines in the city, fire is always a serious danger. Combined with the fear that an enemy nation might one day steal the recipe to greek fire, the Inventor's Guild was charged with developing something that could extinguish the fire. The result is a highly potent form of water. A small amount is enough to extinguish a sizable flame. Attached to arrows for easy delivery, fire brigades now use these water arrows to put out fires on roofs and other hard-to-access locations. Most nobles keep a few handy in case fire were ever to get out of control in their homes."

 

This highly potent "form of water" is some kind of chemical construct, obviously, that happens to operate like real water (it splashes, it falls, it even makes plants grow). It isn't "magic" and it isn't like Thief (it uses your arrow model, in fact).

 

There's absolutely no reason to make it gel.

That's a bunch of crap. What's the point in coming up with some mystical compound, when ordinary gel does the same job.

That shit is no better than saying it's magic.

[Springheel]

ordinary gel does the same job.

 

Ordinary gel does not do the same job, as numerous people have pointed out.

[sparhawk]

Well, that's what we do then. It's magic.