Starforce

[Domarius]

Bad news, Ubisoft have been using Starforce in their latest titles. They have also made a post detailing how a very very VERY tiny & of users report problems and how most of them get solved.

 

The person who was writing details about this went ahead to say how these are only the reported problems but he didn't see why someoone with problems wouldn't report them when he has all the contact information, thus assuming the % of reported problems is a good estimate of the full ammount of encountered problems...

 

I guess he forgot that while they may have Ubisoft information available they have no way of knowing that Starforce was installed on their systems (unless they research), and have no way of knowing which software installed it on their system either.

 

By the way I only did research after your last post and within that time I have found that I was infected with Starforce and that it is very likely Starforce is the reason I've had to change 3 dvd drives within little over a year (and my drives get BARELY any use).

 

I hope I have removed it now, my current drive had already started having some problems (the main problem I got with the others when it had been a while was that somehow drive startup functions stopped the computer from booting up altogether. it'd just hang on start up and the DVD read light would remain on all the time even though no disc was inserted). I hope the removal will reverse the effect...

 

If I had money I would so sue them for breaking 2 drives and possibly a 3rd one...

 

My own brother had to replace his new DVD drive weeks after installing Trackmania.

 

I think the whole idea about piraters trying to spread this rumor is ironically a tactic by the Starforce company itself.

 

And the competition? There are so many reasons why that may not prove much. I think if they really wanted to put their money where their mouth is, they should leave it open indefinetly, for all the people who don't get on the web and check the starforce news page every day. Why did they close it? Scared of being proved wrong?

Seriously, someone physically has to turn up at their office, with their own box. That's a big effort for anyone not living near by, like, in another country. They're counting on the people in the local area happening to be smart enough to prove this problem, which is very difficult to prove. The odds of that are slim. Add to t hat the small timeframe of the comp, and you have something that doesnt hold much water. but the trackmania forum goers are totally convinced :/

[SneaksieDave]

They have also made a post detailing how a very very VERY tiny & of users report problems and how most of them get solved.

 

What's the timeframe for the post you speak of which you speak? The reason I ask is, recently someone among the boycott mentioned that Ubi had said something to the effect of "we realize there are a lot of complaints and people are having problems with starforce.. we are looking into what to do about the situation." I don't remember if it was a direct email or a post from Ubi. I and others have been hopeful that would mean they'd go with a new protection method.

 

If not, I guess I won't be buying Dark Messiah.

[Al3xand3r]

I think it was older, around October 2005... I'm not sure, the thread is linked on the site in your sig. Also in the part you quoted, that & is supposed to be a %, I made a typo...

 

Someone in that thread also mentioned that Oblivion uses Starforce, can someone confirm/deny that? I was looking forward to these two titles and Oblivion is just two weeks away now, I'll be very disapointed if they force me to install Starforce to play them... I'll probably go as far as buying them but installing a pirated copy assuming that the pirated copies won't include Starforce at all (rather than just fooling it).

[Domarius]

All the workarounds i've seen just work around starforce, not keep it removed.

[sparhawk]

Starforce installs some drivers to operate properly. Of course this means that there will be problems. You don't write a driver just like that and expect to work it on every machine. But it seems that crackers have become pretty lame these days. For all this spouting of 0-day 3771 releases they don't manage to crack it? I guess the reason is, because you have to reverse engineer it and analyse how it works. Not just applying a script that was written long ago by some smart cracker.

Reverse engineering a driver is a bit harder than just some simple mechanics, but in the end it is only software, so you can crack it nevertheless.

 

I couldn't believe it, when I read that piratez expect people to physically disconnect their drive just to play a pirated copy. How lame is that?

[Schatten]

If you browse the topic on slashdot a bit, you get the feeling that the Starforce devs have taken considerably more care to avoid debugging than ensure their software doesn't fuck up the host system. Seriously, the whole concept of this kind of protection (as well as the execution, lol trojan gateway lol) looks like Starforce Co. thinks customers won't run anything else on their boxes besides Starforce.

 

Someone in that thread also mentioned that Oblivion uses Starforce, can someone confirm/deny that?

 

Oblivion will not use Starforce, officially confirmed.

[Dram]

I couldn't believe it, when I read that piratez expect people to physically disconnect their drive just to play a pirated copy. How lame is that?

 

It may be lame but it's ironically more convenient then actually buying the game and wasting money on new drives.

 

Every game that I've played, if it has Starforce, you can be sure I have an image of it, quite simply I am not buying a game which will fuck over my drives. Funnily enough though, I only have CD Drives, not DVD Drives.

 

I hope that the developers of starforce get fucked over by it themselves - that'd be a funny outcome, getting a trojan through your own copy protection system

[sparhawk]

It may be lame but it's ironically more convenient then actually buying the game and wasting money on new drives.

 

How about, not playing the game at all and tlling the publishers why you didn't buy the game, even though you would like to?

 

Every game that I've played, if it has Starforce, you can be sure I have an image of it, quite simply I am not buying a game which will fuck over my drives. Funnily enough though, I only have CD Drives, not DVD Drives.

 

So you are always disconnecting your drives when you play these games? Or do you mean that it works with CDs but not with DVDs?

[sxotty]

How about, not playing the game at all and tlling the publishers why you didn't buy the game, even though you would like to?

 

They won't care unfortunately, they will be convinced you are just a useless pirate. If oblvion has starforce I won't buy it either, dirty rotten scoundrels. I was looking forward to it anyway.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

As already mentioned, it doesn't.

 

Dark Messiah is a different matter though.

[sparhawk]

They won't care unfortunately, they will be convinced you are just a useless pirate. If oblvion has starforce I won't buy it either, dirty rotten scoundrels. I was looking forward to it anyway.

 

If enough people don't buy it, they WILL notice it, because their expected sales drop. Of course if you pirate the game, they will just say, that the game was a bad idea because it didn't generate enough sales. And they will conclude that people pirated it neverthless so the copy protection was not strong enough.

 

If enough people tell them that they would have bought it, but they didn't because of the problems with the copy protection, then they will reconsider it.

[sxotty]

If enough people don't buy it, they WILL notice it, because their expected sales drop. Of course if you pirate the game, they will just say, that the game was a bad idea because it didn't generate enough sales. And they will conclude that people pirated it neverthless so the copy protection was not strong enough.

 

If enough people tell them that they would have bought it, but they didn't because of the problems with the copy protection, then they will reconsider it.

No that is my point.

 

If not enough people buy it they blame pirates. If you write an email and say " I did not buy this game b/c it has starforce" they label you as a pirate.

 

It is really very simple. Let us pretend that the dark mod was a comercial project. Someone invested millions and when you sell the game you do not make back the money what is easier to say to investors

A: "Those darn pirates, they all stole the game so no one bought it."

B:"People did not like the game and did not buy it."

C:"I am away from the office, leave a message and I will get back to you."

 

It is a cop out for developers when they do not meet expectations, they simply blame a third party that way they can still look like they did a good job, then the management goes "Hmm these scurvy sea dogs, we better make 'em walk the plank, lets pay some schmucks for copy protection shall we." Star force is then on the game. What do they say if the next game doesn't sell well with starforce? They blame the rabble rousers in the community for playing on unfounded fears.

[Schatten]

Sparhawk is right though.

 

If I sell cars and my customers tell me they would have bought my product but decided against it because the electric system I use is unlocking the doors, cutting the brakes off and is repeatedly playing "Strangers in the Night" on the car's stereo, I will rather consider to change my electric system supplier than pissing off my customers by telling them it's not my problem.

 

The reason is simple enough. I would be loosing money. Nobody wants to loose money.

 

The problem around Starforce is something different. I suspect it is the usual lack of defunct comunication between developement and sales department.

 

You see, things are different in the world of handshake biz. It's all about catch-phrases, advertisement and rethorics. If somebody tells the head of Sales Dpt. that XY is the shit, Mr. Head will investigate and look at sales numbers. Oooh, lookee here: Game A and B which used XY had very good sales. The website of company XY looks like serious biz, too. I'll give them a call. Hello, other friendly sales person. You're speaking the same language as I do, and the big technical words you're using sound impressive. I don't get it what it's about, but my, game A and B did sell really good. And your website looks cool.

 

What then happens, is that customers report back with problems XY is causing. But they will talk to techy people. And the techy people will understand, very likely even know about the problems. Now, when a techy person tries to explain the problem of XY to the sales person, he has a very hard time. Believe me, I was in that situation a lot myself. The sales person doesn't care that XY is "granting ring 0 rights to ring 3 users", because they have no idea what that nerd is talking about - besides, the product seems to go well. Even if they are interested, they'll phone up the sales person of XY and ask him about the big words they just learned, and guess what they'll hear from XY? You have one guess.

 

The tech people on the other side get most of the fire. Maybe they want to scream for all the world to hear "FUCK XY, FUCK THEM IN THE ASS", but they can't. You can't tell your customers that you know you sold them crap.

 

There's only one thing that pisses off a sales person. That is, loosing money. They will understand if you tell them "I'd have bought it, but didn't because of XY". It's the same like if you told them "I'd have bought your bananas if they were red". If enough people want red bananas, they will get red bananas. It's really that simple.

[Dram]

So you are always disconnecting your drives when you play these games? Or do you mean that it works with CDs but not with DVDs?

 

Actually no, it is funny but Starforce Nightmare seems to work on CD drives better hehe. But the most recent versions of starforce are proving to be a pain. But disconnecting drives is not really a problem for me as 1) I have an antec case which has the super-useful hingedoor type thing, and 2) I don't use my drives very often at all, only when I backup or whatever, so it's not a problem to reconnect it when I need to back something up or whatever. Plus I use my brothers DVD drive if I need to burn something on DVD, hence why I don't have my own.

[sparhawk]

You see, things are different in the world of handshake biz. It's all about catch-phrases, advertisement and rethorics. If somebody tells the head of Sales Dpt. that XY is the shit, Mr. Head will investigate and look at sales numbers. Oooh, lookee here: Game A and B which used XY had very good sales. The website of company XY looks like serious biz, too. I'll give them a call. Hello, other friendly sales person. You're speaking the same language as I do, and the big technical words you're using sound impressive. I don't get it what it's about, but my, game A and B did sell really good. And your website looks cool.

 

What then happens, is that customers report back with problems XY is causing. But they will talk to techy people. And the techy people will understand, very likely even know about the problems. Now, when a techy person tries to explain the problem of XY to the sales person, he has a very hard time. Believe me, I was in that situation a lot myself. The sales person doesn't care that XY is "granting ring 0 rights to ring 3 users", because they have no idea what that nerd is talking about - besides, the product seems to go well. Even if they are interested, they'll phone up the sales person of XY and ask him about the big words they just learned, and guess what they'll hear from XY? You have one guess.

 

THis is a very accurate description how software development works. I have experienced the same several times, where I told the manager that something is not a good idea to do, but the answer was always depending on money. Even if it meant maybe loosing money later, if it gives a boost in the short run, most managers will do it. Who cares about tomorrow? I might be employed at another company at that time.

[sparhawk]

Actually no, it is funny but Starforce Nightmare seems to work on CD drives better hehe. But the most recent versions of starforce are proving to be a pain. But disconnecting drives is not really a problem for me as 1) I have an antec case which has the super-useful hingedoor type thing, and 2) I don't use my drives very often at all, only when I backup or whatever, so it's not a problem to reconnect it when I need to back something up or whatever. Plus I use my brothers DVD drive if I need to burn something on DVD, hence why I don't have my own.

 

It's not the problem itself, it's the principle. I could disconnect my drives in no time, as I have a case that can be easily opened from the side. But I simply refuse to reboot, disconnect, play a bit, reboot, reconnect, etc. ...

That would have to be an EXTREMLY good game, that I can't afford to buy and absolutely want to have it, to accept such a hassle. So far I have not seen such a game, that would be worth it.

 

It's similar with Steam. I wanted to play HL2, but I refused to buy it because of Steam. It's as simple as that. I didn't buy it, because I wanted to boycott it, not because I couldn't get a copy (which I could), or had problems with Steam. I also wont buy it if it only costs 5 Euros in the bargain bin, as long as it has Steam included. Not that my single refusal will count much, in face of all the fanboys who are salivating just to get a look at it.

[Al3xand3r]

Why would you not buy Half-Life 2 because of Steam and how is Steam similar to Starforce in any way to be talked about here? Half-Life 2 was a decent game but by no means groundbreaking in my opinion so I'm not what you'd call a fanboy. I mostly bought it because I know the great Half-Life modding community would carry over to Half-Life 2.

 

As far as Steam is concerned, I see no problem with it and don't know what your principles that stop you from buying a product with it are. Online distribution can happen without Steam but Steam has other functions that are good for people who don't know as much as you. Auto updating (optional btw) and such (hell all that is good for me too, I might have been able to easily find the patches be4 Steam but I don't even have to look for them now, I just start Steam and I have them in a few minutes). It also boosts the mod community as Valve often mentions modifications in the news pop ups (those are also optional btw, nothing about Steam is so intrusive). And if sometimes I have connection problems, I can still run the games if I want to by starting Steam if offline mode.

 

More than that, it lets the money go more where they count, directly to the developer instead of some big publisher. Sure they could have done online distribution withOUT Steam BUT they'd definitely get a lot less sales if it wasn't such an automated experience. Hell, it probably couldn't really work at all without that unless they actually sent the boxed discs when you bought it which would again require a proper publisher to make the boxes and cds for the ammount of orders a game like HL2 would have... Steam is also not only used by Valve, it is also used by indie devs who don't manage to get a proper publisher.

 

Look at Darwinia, a true gem of a game that unfortunately couldn't get a hold of a decent publisher so it ended up only being released in England. That's hardly a good thing for its developers. Steam however gave them the chance to distribute the game WORLDWIDE and drop it right in the middle of a HUGE user base, something that would have NOT happened without it. Sure they could have sold their game online but nobody would really know about it, or trust that small company as much as an established one like Valve. By putting it on Steam they got an instant and free advertising to a pretty large ammount of people.

 

The same can now be told for Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 (though they recently confirmed that they managed to get a retail publisher too).

 

For these reasons I like the idea and the implementation isn't half bad (could be less resource intensive but it's not too bad in that aspect either). And with auto updating and constant development it'll end up being a lot more than just good at some point.

 

Online distribution is the future and I think we all should support Valve because the colossi of the publishing space are also trying their own solutions and they sure as hell aren't going to be so friendly with indie and mod devs. EA launched their own similar service a while ago and I'm sure others aren't far behind. Our best bet for a decent system that gets good games, helps indie devs, and even promotes mod teams (look at Alien Swarm: Infested), is Valve and their Steam platform. And Valve currently has the 1st place just because they made Half-Life 2 require steam which was a great move on their part. However, whenever EA decides to go ahead with it, they will easily beat Valve. All they need to do is bundle their downloader with the next Fifa game and it'll instantly appear on millions upon millions of computers...

[sparhawk]

Why would you not buy Half-Life 2 because of Steam and how is Steam similar to Starforce in any way to be talked about here?

 

Starforce is designed to take away some freedom of rightfull owners. Steam is designed to take away some freedom from rightfull owners. Sounds like a pretty good correlation, even though steam is designed to do more than just that.

 

Half-Life 2 was a decent game but by no means groundbreaking in my opinion so I'm not what you'd call a fanboy. I mostly bought it because I know the great Half-Life modding community would carry over to Half-Life 2.

 

Well, you buy your games for your reason, I buy it for my own. Buying a game means supporting it. Since I was not satisified with the package, I did not want to give a false message of supporting it. It's as simple as that. I would buy HL2 the instant that steam is removed, because even though HL2 was not something groundbreaking new, it was still fun and deserves to be payed for. A game doesn't need to be groundbreaking just to buy it.

 

As far as Steam is concerned, I see no problem with it and don't know what your principles that stop you from buying a product with it are.

 

You can lok up the approriate threads, it was discussed in detail.

 

More than that, it lets the money go more where they count, directly to the developer instead of some big publisher.

 

You think so, yeah? Valve has become it's own publisher, which means that for Valve games it may really end up in the developers pockets, but most likely not, because it will more surely end up in the shareholders pockets instead. Apart from that, for everybody else, Valve is just another distributor, so for other game developers it's not true that the money is directed where it belongs to.

 

Sure they could have done online distribution withOUT Steam BUT they'd definitely get a lot less sales if it wasn't such an automated experience.

 

From my side they got less sales BECAUSE of it.

 

Hell, it probably couldn't really work at all without that unless they actually sent the boxed discs when you bought it which would again require a proper publisher to make the boxes and cds for the ammount of orders a game like HL2 would have...

 

Ah, you see. That's where you are wrong, because HL2 was boxed as well, and there would have been no reason to force Steam on these users as well. I don't want to play online with Counterstrike, I just want to play HL2, so why am I forced to use Steam if I buy the boxed version? If it were all for online distribution, then it would have been fine if online users could have purchased it that way and downloaded it. I would have no problem with this. But Steam is NOT about online distribution, it is much more, and that is the reason why it was also included in the boxed version.

 

Steam is also not only used by Valve, it is also used by indie devs who don't manage to get a proper publisher.

 

I just squeezed a silent tear for them. Can't manage more right now, because I have other stuff to do.

 

Look at Darwinia, a true gem of a game that unfortunately couldn't get a hold of a decent publisher so it ended up only being released in England. That's hardly a good thing for its developers. Steam however gave them the chance to distribute the game WORLDWIDE and drop it right in the middle of a HUGE user

base, something that would have NOT happened without it.

 

Good for them.

 

Sure they could have sold their game online but nobody would really know about it, or trust that small company as much as an established one like Valve.

 

Huh? What kind of argument is that? Just because it is distributed over Steam doesn't make it something different.

 

And with auto updating and constant development it'll end up being a lot more than just good at some point.

 

Yeah, here we agree, and that's what I don't like.

 

Online distribution is the future and I think we all should support Valve because the colossi of the publishing space are also trying their own solutions and they sure as hell aren't going to be so friendly with indie and mod devs.

 

LOL! You make it sound as if Valve acts on behalf of the players, woith only their best interest in mind. Valve is a company. Companies don't do something for the good cause.

 

All they need to do is bundle their downloader with the next Fifa game and it'll instantly appear on millions upon millions of computers...

 

Exactly. Without a choice.... But since it is for the good of the players, we should aplaude it.... And it the stupid players don't see how good it is for them, we shove it down their throats until they see the light.

 

I prefer to make my choices myself and don't get them forced on me. It's not as if I can't live without games and publishers are not really dependent on my money.

[Vadrosaul]

What exactly is it about Steam that turns you on, Sparhawk?

[Al3xand3r]

How does it take away your freedom? You own the game either way, and you can download it on any computer, and it doesn't break your pc in any way, and it doesn't stop you from installing the game on multiple computers or... whatever... How is your freedom compromised? You own the game just as much as any game without Steam.

 

The only thing that would compromise freedom would be if Valve went bankrupt and Steam went down thus not allowing you to download the game again after a format (the servers would be down).

 

Still, I'm pretty sure that if things came to that, Valve would release some sort of patch that would enable Steam to run in offline mode permanently before things completely died out, so that the backups would work. Not that there's any danger of that happening any time soon...

 

But the above could apply in many many games. If EA went bankrupt you wouldn't be able to log on to your character's account when starting the game so you wouldn't be able to play it for example. Many other multiplayer games work in this way.

 

Also, of course Valve is a company, I simply think that they are a company that does more for people than the likes of EA. Maybe the reason they do it is profit, but they still do it so I'm better off supporting them than others since this way I show them I like what they do and they should keep doing it. As for them receiving money from devs that use Steam for distribution, well, that's also obvious. But they apparently take less. Else, why would someone use Steam instead of get a deal with a retail publisher (one of the big reasons for good games not getting deals is that the publishers ask TOO much, like owning the IP rights etc, not because they aren't interested at all in the games)?

 

Also, pretty much any game you buy comes from some sort of company so if those are so evil why do you purchase any at all?

 

Darwinia isn't the only example of a good deed, the team behind Alien Swarm: Infested is another one. They don't even have the rights to the Source engine but they will be allowed to make a profit from their work on what is in reality a modification for Half-Life 2. Sure Valve will take some of it, but why shouldn't they? Their engine, their platform, what other developer lets you sell a game without having bought their engine's licence? And I'm sure the deal done was good else Black Cat Games members wouldn't have gone ahead with it since at heart they are still mod developers and still work on other mods outside AS:I.

[Domarius]

I vouch for Darwinia being a fricking awesome game.

[SneaksieDave]

it lets the money go more where they count, directly to the developer instead of some big publisher.

It sure does. And remember when Valve said that would keep prices low? So... what ever happened to that? Did it not work out? Was it a bold-faced lie? Taking advantage of fanbois? We already know whether it's greed or not - look at Valve's worth, and from two games.

 

There's nothing wrong with digital distribution of course, but steam (more so at launch, less and less each time they revise the software - that alone should say something; people are bitching and they're accomodating to keep the masses from rejecting their model) forces it on users in the wrong way. Just watch - soon it will be 'insert a quarter' to play (where the quarter is your paypal-linked steam user account). What will users do when the service is not available in X amount of time, and they want to play them game? What will users do when they go too far? Nothing, because they've already accepted it.

 

The reasons are many and varied and I won't pretend to know them all. HL2 doesn't much even exist to me. There are sites out there where the main gripes are all laid out clearly.

 

Edit: *notices* Hey! How did we get derailed from the evil starforce!?

[sparhawk]

How does it take away your freedom? You own the game either way, and you can download it on any computer, and it doesn't break your pc in any way, and it doesn't stop you from installing the game on multiple computers or... whatever... How is your freedom compromised? You own the game just as much as any game without Steam.

 

Well, let's see wether this is true.

• Steam doesn't allow me to install my game without an internet connection. Yeah, I know if you have a desktop it's ok, because EVERYBODY has internet these days, and people without internet are worthless crap anyway. Oh! I forgot! This is not completely true. You can always drag your computer over to a friend who has internet and install it there, problem solved.
  
• I can not sell my game as I can sell a box. Ah, yes, I can transfer the account of Steam as well, but that costs a fee (why does it cost anything at all if I'm forced to use it?). How does it work if I have multiple steam games? Since I have to transfer my Steam account in order to sell the game, does this mean I have to unregister all the other games, open a new account and re-register all the games there?
  
• I can not create a backup of it. Oh! Of course I can, but next time I have to reinstall Windows (I know this is somethign unheard of), I have to reinstall Steam again and consequently erinstall HL2 as well.
  
• When I run HL2 it will always check for updates. Why does it need to check for updaets, as long as the game runs fine I don't need any updates. No problem you say, because you can simply run it in offline mode. Sure. I can disconnect from the internet. I just have to login to the server and disable my account as long as I want to run HL2. Ah! Shit! This means I can not run some other download in the background because if I want to download something I have to have my internet connection alive, and if this is the case then Steam checks for updates and forces them on me eevn if I don't want them.
  
• But Steam is good because it prevents pirates to play the game, and this will utimately help to create better games, because all the money is received by the developers and it also makes games cheaper because the distributor is no longer in the chain. Strange. When it started to sell, the box costed even more than other games. And if you purchase a direct download account you pay *GASP* THE SAME as for the box. Can you explain this? because I sure don't understand it. Download is cheaper (that's the claim), but the download account costs EXACTLY the same as the game in the store, even though the game in the store needs a box, a booklet, a CD, etc.).
  
• Valve decided to close about 20000 accounts in the past. Your key was also locked? Bad luck, it's for the greater good. You just wanted to play the singleplayer? Why did you use a locked key in the first place. You know how easy it is to get a key. Just get in a big store, open the package, take a shot of the key and go home. Easy as pie.
  
• I have games which are more then ten years old. I doubt that all these games would still be supported after such a time. Of course high profile games might survive, but others will most likely not.
  

 

Still, I'm pretty sure that if things came to that, Valve would release some sort of patch that would

enable Steam to run in offline mode permanently before things completely died out, so that the backups would work. Not that there's any danger of that happening any time soon...

 

Yeah. I'm pretty sure if Valve would go bankrupt, it would be their primary concern to release a patch to the good gamers, because this is what they have in mind all the time.

 

But the above could apply in many many games. If EA went bankrupt you wouldn't be able to log on to your character's account when starting the game so you wouldn't be able to play it for example. Many other multiplayer games work in this way.

 

HL2 is a SINGLEPLAYER game, remember? When I purchase HL2 I don't need to run the multiplayer part of it, because I'm not interested in that part. And other games also are multiplayer but they offer to create your own server.

 

Else, why would someone use Steam instead of get a deal with a retail publisher (one of the big reasons for good games not getting deals is that the publishers ask TOO much, like owning the IP rights etc, not because they aren't interested at all in the games)?

 

Theer are many reasons why companies do business with each other, and not all of them are purely because of money.

 

Also, pretty much any game you buy comes from some sort of company so if those are so evil why do you purchase any at all?

 

Obviously there are difference. You know why I support Id? because they are not only talking about the interest of the community, they prooved it several times that they put their money where there mouth is. Also, usually I don't buy games to support a company, I buy games because I want to enjoy the games. I usually don't care much for the company that created it, except some rare cases, where the company proofes that the community is not just some cash cow, like Id prooved.

 

Darwinia isn't the only example of a good deed, the team behind Alien Swarm: Infested is another one. They don't even have the rights to the Source engine but they will be allowed to make a profit from their work on what is in reality a modification for Half-Life 2.

 

And why? because this boosts sales for Steam which means money for Valve. They wouldn't give the rights away just for nothing. If Steam was not involved the mods would not be allowed to be sold, because then there would be no money involved for Valve.

 

Their engine, their platform, what other developer lets you sell a game without having bought their engine's licence?

 

There is no other game currently available that is integrated into the publisher, that's why.

 

And actually I'm not really a friend of mods that start selling their mod. On the other hand, if they are starting to sell their mod, then I expect the same as from any other company. Which means support, bugfixes, etc..

[sparhawk]

Edit: *notices* Hey! How did we get derailed from the evil starforce!?

 

Because both are applications designed to take away freedom and generate more money for the publishers.

[Domarius]

It's unanimous here that Starforce really does damage, so I suppose there's no point discussing it anyway if we all agree on it.

 

It's a shame that the people at the trackmania forum are so convinced, when its not so open and closed.