Hold Your Breath?

[sparhawk]

A simple stim. We already have gas arrows working, and the area gas would be no difference. It just would have to be scripted to be triggered at some point, or stay around forever if it is, for example, a poisonous swamp.

[Dram]

Yes, I think hold breath key option is a good idea. For those who want it easy they can have auto breath hold, while those who like it hard use a key. I can imagine very many scenarios for this

[OrbWeaver]

I don't see the point of a hold breath key. Not only is it redundant (under what possible circumstances would you want to enter poison gas without holding your breath?), but it will require the player to hold down THREE keys - the hold breath key, the shift key to run and the forward motion key.

[Dram]

...but it will require the player to hold down THREE keys - the hold breath key, the shift key to run and the forward motion key.

 

You have a point. I guess I'd be fine with the breath meter, though i'd still prefer the option of turning on a hold breath key, cos you can assign it to the mouse (mine has 5 buttons)

[Springheel]

I don't see the point of a hold breath key.

 

I don't either. It's like a having a 'close eyes' key to avoid being blinded by flashbombs. You shouldn't have to press buttons for what should be involuntary actions.

[OrbWeaver]

I don't either. It's like a having a 'close eyes' key to avoid being blinded by flashbombs. You shouldn't have to press buttons for what should be involuntary actions.

 

Exactly. The next step would be to have "inhale" and "exhale" keys that must be struck at suitable intervals, along with a "pulse" key that must be pressed 72 times a minute otherwise you die.

[sparhawk]

I don't see the point of a hold breath key. Not only is it redundant (under what possible circumstances would you want to enter poison gas without holding your breath?), but it will require the player to hold down THREE keys - the hold breath key, the shift key to run and the forward motion key.

 

The point is not to stop breathing while you are in such an area, the point is, that you can trigger it, when you are in a trap, and try to get out.

[Dram]

I guess it could work as a button rather then a hold key. As in, you press it once to hold breath and press it again to release.

 

It would be important to press it prior to entering a poison gas area, as once you're in there you've already breathed in and can't really hold your breath as you'd be holding the gas in your lungs.

[ZylonBane]

Having to manually tap a key to hold your breath isn't just inconsistent with the swimming behavior, it also introduces some messy gameplay problems--

 

Ambiguity. If the game automatically takes care of breath-holding, there would never be a problem with the player falling over dead because he mistook some fog for poison gas... or vice versa.

 

The player would have to remember to "unhold" his breath after leaving a poison-gas area.

 

The player could cheese the system by quickly taking a breath then holding it again to refill their breath bar.

 

The player could, conceivably, just decide to hold their breath and fall over dead at any time, in any place. Funny, but stupid.

[Domarius]

lol - "we can't stop players from killing themselves", but this has got to be the funniest way yet.

[bob_arctor]

Automatic would be best. Have a cough if you want, but don't remove any health in the nice gas until the breath bar runs out.

 

That's what I say.

[sparhawk]

Cheating is not possible, because it takes some time to refill the breath canister (aka lunges).

[Gildoran]

Although I'm tempted to say that adding a "hold breath" key sounds like overkill, I don't think automatically holding your breath makes sense for when the gas is invisible and odorless.

 

For example, if I'm making some ancient ruins in some caves, it would make sense that volcanic gasses might settle into the lower chambers. Such gasses are usually invisisble and lack any odor; often you hear stories about people or animals that walk into some gully only to fall over dead unexpectedly. If the readables at an archeological base-camp mention a particular chamber where the explorers who ventured into it fell unconscious and died for no apparent reason, the player would know to check the ground for corpses before entering new chambers without holding their breath. It wouldn't make sense for them to automatically start holding their breath, as they'd have no other way of knowing.

[OrbWeaver]

Although I'm tempted to say that adding a "hold breath" key sounds like overkill, I don't think automatically holding your breath makes sense for when the gas is invisible and odorless.

 

If it both invisible and odourless, what use is the hold breath key anyway? You will never know that the gas is there in order to activate the key.

 

I think it reasonable to only allow detectable poison gasses (such as NO2) in the gameworld (obviously individual mappers can do whatever they want). Silent killers like CO are not really appropriate for a Thief-like game (unless it is turned into a full-blown chemistry simulation, with gas detection kits and the like).

[Gildoran]

If it both invisible and odourless, what use is the hold breath key anyway? You will never know that the gas is there in order to activate the key.

You're forgetting that detecting the gas is the puzzle:

 

If the readables at an archeological base-camp mention a particular chamber where the explorers who ventured into it fell unconscious and died for no apparent reason, the player would know to check the ground for [explorer] corpses before entering new chambers without holding their breath. It wouldn't make sense for them to automatically start holding their breath, as they'd have no other way of knowing.

[OrbWeaver]

You're forgetting that detecting the gas is the puzzle:

 

Fair enough, but I'm not sure that facilitating a single puzzle is good justification for introducing all of the gameplay issues involved in a hold-breath key (some of which ZylonBane mentioned above).

 

After all, the challenge in this case is not whether you can hold down a key or not, but whether you can search the chamber quickly enough before you run out of breath - which will be the case with or without a manual key.

[Gildoran]

I don't disagree with your last post. I'm just trying to say that automatic breath-holding isn't a panacea that solves all problems.

[Dram]

And I believe that an option is best. Turn on button holding or automatic. That way we cater for both users.

[Springheel]

An option doesn't make any sense in a situation like this. This isn't just about what the player feels is best--the FM author has to be able to know what the effect of the gas will be on players.

 

I'm with Orb. I can't see any valid reason for having a hold breath key, other than situations where the player has to 'guess' whether they're going to be affected by gas or not. In those cases, you *still* don't need a key, since the player would automatically hold their breath as soon as they started taking damage from the gas.

[Dram]

Fair enough. I guess I'd be happy either way.

[demagogue]

Just for completeness sake to address this point: I'd think the idea of running out of air while holding your breath (outside the water context) is dumb too and my intuition is that you'd just automatically/involuntarily release your breath and take a gasp of air (mechanics wise: it automatically toggles off), and if you're in gas you'd start taking damage from that point (according to the gas, not the breath holding like in water, and you can't rehold your breath inside gas because of the gas) and if you're not in gas then the hold-breath is just released, no problem, game-on.

 

A toggle key sounds like a good idea just in the case when you're standing right in front of a gas chamber, you know it's there, you want to run through it, you don't want that first cough, so you can toggle-on holding breath right then and there and then toggle it off when you're out, or just wait for the breath to run out and it will toggle itself off. And then it can still happen that if you blunder/fall into a gas chamber or a trap goes off, you take damage right off DX style and have to find a way out fast, since the whole point is you didn't see it coming. (And BTW, this is the one situation where doing it automatically seems a bit counterintuitive, since it's meant to be a trap ... but if it takes 30 seconds before any damage then it's a trap that doesn't cost anything. Logic-centric gameplay works better when there's a real cost to erring.)

 

Anyway, I can see pros/cons on both sides, & I can see some of your points against it ... it's a matter of weighing everything up and seeing which is just better/more intuitive in the end.

Edited April 27, 2006 by demagogue

[Dram]

...you'd just automatically/involuntarily release your breath and take a gasp of air...

 

I thought that's what everyone thought

[ZylonBane]

A toggle key sounds like a good idea just in the case when you're standing right in front of a gas chamber, you know it's there, you want to run through it, you don't want that first cough

Just don't have any first-cough then. Have the breath-holding kick in immediately.

[sparhawk]

No matter how we do it, there will always be some people not liking it.

 

Having no first-breath is IMO even worse and defeats the purpose of traps. It sounds like an automatic jump feature. Whenever a trap is on the floor, the player automatically jumps over it,and only if he falls short, the trap is sprung. Kind of pointless.

[OrbWeaver]

Having no first-breath is IMO even worse and defeats the purpose of traps. It sounds like an automatic jump feature. Whenever a trap is on the floor, the player automatically jumps over it,and only if he falls short, the trap is sprung. Kind of pointless.

 

Traps are still possible, since the mapper can create a trap which takes a long time to get out of, or is very disorienting when navigated under the influence of gas.

 

In fact, if we continue with the assumption that rust gas is similar to NO2 then there could be some kind of vision distortion caused by the reaction of gas on the eyes, making it very challenging to escape from a complex trap that was filled with the gas.