Leaning? Forward Leaning?

[Denny]

I think you're looking at it wrong. The idea is that you back up to the rail, lean back a bit out over the rail, looking upward as you do so, to see the guy up on the upper level. Kind of like leaning back a bit to look up at the top shelf in the closet

 

Yeah, somewhat like it. Also why "not" add it? I mean, when the leaning has been made it's mostly a matter of leaning-direction and key binding that has to be done. It doesn't hurt to add and people doesn't have to use it if they don't want to?

 

Personally I've had some irritating moments by leaning left and then trying to aim properly towards things above me.....

[sparhawk]

Come to think of it, I also think it would be usefull to have a "step on your toes" feature, to give you a slight advantage in height. It's quite annoying, that your only chance to look a bit higher is to jump, which is loud.

Problem ist that player may have to decide what they actually bind to their keys, with to many functions.

[Maximius]

Come to think of it, I also think it would be usefull to have a "step on your toes" feature, to give you a slight advantage in height. It's quite annoying, that your only chance to look a bit higher is to jump, which is loud.

Problem ist that player may have to decide what they actually bind to their keys, with to many functions.

 

 

I think you mean "stand on your toes", as a thief who steps on his or her own toes would not be in business for very long . That would be a great addition to the movements of the Thief, and it would add a nice dash of realism.

Edited June 21, 2006 by Maximius

[ZylonBane]

Ok, stop. Just stop. Now you're getting into System Shock 1 levels of ridiculously-precise body control. This is a thieving game, not a gymnastics simulator.

 

Although, now that you mention it...

 

I've been vexed many times in Thief by trying to look through a hole that was exactly between standing height and crouching height. So how about this-- have a "Height Adjust" key that, when held, lets you use the mouse wheel to smoothly adjust the player's posture between crouched and standing. Theoretically this wouldn't even require the creation of any new animations. Just have the player automatically transition to crouched or standing (whichever they're closer to) if they try to move while in this state.

[OrbWeaver]

I like such uses of the mouse to control position, there were several in Rainbow Six where you carefully open doors or lean by using the mouse wheel in conjunction with some modifier key.

[Arumakani]

The game linked to in this thread has an interesting method for opening lockers etc: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showtopic=3853

 

You would not think of doing it like a command like some games do? Hitman etc.

[sparhawk]

Controlled opening of doors was decided against, because the AI is at an disadvantage anyway.

[ZylonBane]

How are doors handled, BTW? Do moving doors partially pass through the player (as in Deus Ex), or can you block a door from opening/closing all the way as in Thief?

 

I've always liked how Thief lets you lock a door, but block it from closing so you can drop the key back where you got it before closing the door behind you. Now *that's* ghosting!

[sparhawk]

Doors are physical object and can be blocked by the player. Or deal damage...

[Denny]

I wonder, couldn't the leaning system be a toggle? I mean;

 

alt+w = lean forward

alt+s = lean backwards

alt+a = lean left (also Q)

alt+d = lean right (also E)

alt+space(jump) = stand on toes (although this one would be the least comfortable combination for the fingers)

 

Get what I mean? :3

Edited June 21, 2006 by Denny

[sparhawk]

I wonder, couldn't the leaning system be a toggle? I mean;

 

What's that got to do with toggling? Where you configure your keys is of no concern to us. You can put it on whatever setup you seem fit.

 

Get what I mean? :3

 

No. Not really.

[bob_arctor]

Well I think he means the default ones. And not toggle but a modifier key.

 

And certainly my TII forward lean is shift-w.

 

The idea is good. And I like standing on tip toes and leaning in all 4 directions.

 

How do you show the play what they are doing though? A little man in the corner who is crouching or standing on tip-toes?

[sparhawk]

Why should we show this? If you can't remember which keys you are currently holding, then you should probably go and see a doctor.

[ZylonBane]

Geeze, just combine the whole mess into a "Posture Mode". Hold a key and you get:

 

Mouse = leaning

Mousewheel = height

 

That would be pretty cool, actually. You'd get the functionality of six keys (crouch/stand/lean left/right/forward/back) built into one + mouse, and in an intuitive way.

[sparhawk]

But then you can't move the mouse while leaning anymore.

[ZylonBane]

If you want to do that, just use the lean keys.

 

I'm only suggesting this as an optional, high-precision way of controlling your posture.

[Ishtvan]

Rainbow Six : Raven Shield had a system almost identical to that. You could hold one posture key, moving left/right leaned you left/right, and moving up/down did a continuous transition between standing and crouching. It was neat at first, but in the heat of the moment I never really used it and just reverted back to lean keys and toggle crouch. It might be something to think about for future releases.

[bob_arctor]

"Why should we show this? If you can't remember which keys you are currently holding, then you should probably go and see a doctor. smile.gif"

 

Urm. You have in games something called a default control set up. What games do you play where all the keys are initially unbound?

 

And generally people use these keys as they can't be bothered to change them if the defaults work. So maybe you could have a lean modifier in your default key setup.

 

"crouch/stand/lean"

 

You don't need a stand key. Just have toggle crouch. I don't think an analogue position system would help really. A crouch toggle and a lean toggle would do.

 

It would feel strange initially to go "shift left" to lean left, but you'd get used to it.

 

What is far more important is the possibility of a mouse-wheel based speed selection. Having a walk and a sneak modifier key like TII is rubbish.

[sparhawk]

Sure. It was so much rubbish that players still play Thief after so many years.

[Ishtvan]

That continuously varying speed thing works well in third person where you can see exactly how fast/carefully your character is moving, but you wouldn't get that feedback in 1st person. Also, what exactly is the gameplay benefit of that over 6 selectable speeds (crouch-creep, creep, crouch-walk, etc.)?

[bob_arctor]

Well even just with 4 speeds (really slow sneak, a normalish sneak, walk and ran perhaps? A sprint?) it is easier than the whole 2 key modifier thing.

 

And you'd just have a HUD element showing even something as fast as a bar with a bit in the middle moving from left (slow) to right (fast). I'd be pretty obvious what it was as the feedback would be immediate: "I'm going slow!".

 

I think it's an elegant solution. Plus it frees up a key for a lean modifier.

[ZylonBane]

And you'd just have a HUD element showing even something as fast as a bar with a bit in the middle moving from left (slow) to right (fast).

Hell no. I do not want to be a fracking race car.

[sparhawk]

We could also add a Thief Happiniess meter. Everytime you grab some loot, it will go to the left (happy) and if you get hurt it gets to the right (unhappy). Seeing some sleeping maid in the bedroom and jumping on it, would of course make it go up (VERY HAPPY).

[Komag]

hehe

[Ishtvan]

I think it's an elegant solution. Plus it frees up a key for a lean modifier.

 

A solution to what problem exactly? The player has to crouch to fit in small spaces and behind barriers anyway, so the crouch key is going to be used. Your proposed method requires two more inputs, up speed / down speed. The Thief method requires two more inputs as well, a run and a creep modifier. Same number of inputs, and I haven't heard any advantages so far. This seems to fall into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" category.