Guard Responce To Being Trapped.

[demagogue]

For what it's worth, my thinking is if a mapper wanted something like this, he should trigger it himself. Because it's really about design features that are at the mapper's discretion, which is what I thought Spar's more general point was.

 

So there might be doors that a guard isn't *supposed* to be able to unlock. E.g., if he's running after the PC in new territory, like a strange house and gets locked in and tries to return to his old path after a while, or even if it's on his normal patrol route but he's like a city watch that goes through technically private property, it'd be strange to hear him say "why doesn't this lock work?" because it's not a lock he should be able to unlock. But if a door is on a guard's home turf, and his key gets stolen, it seems like a mapper could use scripts to custom trigger a bark to cover this kind of situation, and more appropriately, to say things like "damn, where'd my key go." (if he didn't see it get taken); "who's been taffing with the locks" (also, if he didn't see the door get locked), and even be careful enough to trigger different barks or cancel them if he *did* see what happened and just generally tweak it to be appropriate, and that could still be cool.

 

The more general point here I think is that, people make suggestions all the time around here that seem so map-specific that it'd really be better to let mappers custom put them in (because in the right situation they really could be cool), than for the team to assume them in all maps for the toolset, which can only lead to absurd, out-of-context results.

Edited July 11, 2006 by demagogue

[ZylonBane]

So there might be doors that a guard isn't *supposed* to be able to unlock.

Then the mapper shouldn't script the guard to patrol through it, dur.

Edited July 11, 2006 by ZylonBane

[Gildoran]

Then the mapper shouldn't script the guard to patrol through it, dur.

You're missing his point: The guard may chase the thief into foreign territory, and once locked in a room there, they shouldn't make barks like "strange... when did this door become locked?"

[Komag]

But in that case the "What the taff!?" would still work

[Elusive_Thief]

It would however be interesting to lock an AI Gaurd/personage in a room only to come back later and find curiously he is not there because he opened a secret passage and got away! (run on sentence) Or if the room had a balcony he could use a rope arrow to let himself down to grond level, or a SlowFall Potion. Yes I know code takes forever, but this could make things interesting. Just ideas

Edited July 12, 2006 by Elusive_Thief

[ZylonBane]

Guard AI should concentrate on things that happen when the player is present, not things that happen when he isn't.

[bob_arctor]

@Elusive_Thief

 

Those ideas are map specific scripts for sure.

 

I agree that a "What the...!" (Taff= too Thiefy?) bark is needed, as you can use it for anything. In TDS it was when the guards went to highest alert, they saw you. It's versatile for any kind of trapping situation too. I'd use that.

[ZylonBane]

That's a good point. A generic non-specific "surprised" bark set would be extremely handy for mappers.

[oDDity]

How about 'What the fuck?!'

I bet you've all got a million and one reasons why they shouldn't say 'fuck' starting with the ever-popular 'it wasn't in Thief' ( an erroneous appeal, since we're not makng Thief), followed by the ubiquitous 'it doens't fit the setting' (an appeal which can never be backed up with anything but a personal, bias opinion)

They use thousands of other English words, thry are guff, uncultured and foul-mouthed men, and it fits the time period of their speech (as does cunt, bastard, etc)

THe very idea of them not using them is ridiculous, having them say 'flip' and 'bloody' and 'dang' etc, is nothing but puritanical nonsense.

[Gildoran]

However... 'fuck' is so overused nowadays that it doesn't carry the same weight it might have in the past. And while I fully admit this is personal bias, 'fuck' just doesn't sound midieval to me. (yes, I know it supposedly stands for "fornication under consent of the king" which contradicts my bias) These two things combined make it not very useful at illustrating the character of the guards and the era; when I hear "that bloody bastard" I'm immersed, but when I hear "that fucking idiot" it reminds me of modern speech. While I don't think we should shy away from foul language, I don't see 'fuck' as a useful tool for setting the ambiance.

[ZylonBane]

yes, I know it supposedly stands for "fornication under consent of the king" which contradicts my bias

Not really.

 

No Grand Theft Auto in my Thief, please kthxbye.

[oDDity]

Thought so. Not a decent argument between you.

Maybe we should ban them from saying 'the' and 'and' as well, I mean they're so over-used in games these days. I don't want words being used in TDM that are also used in stupid games like GTA - in fact, we'll have no choice but to create a new unique language specifically for TDM world.

To finish you guys off, let's take a more neutral word like 'damn'

It is used regularly and often in modern games and other media, yet you have no quarrel wiht it beiung used by TDM characters as well.

Tell me the difference.

[ZylonBane]

Thought so. Not a decent argument between you.

You haven't exactly offered up any stellar arguments for your position.

Edited July 13, 2006 by ZylonBane

[Komag]

I'm for puritanical nonsense myself

[oDDity]

Yes Komag, you're quite happy to play this and other games where you wander around with a variety of lethal weapons killing people, but god forbid one of them should say a 'bad word'.

You haven't exactly offered up any stellar arguments for your position.

 

I don't need any arguments. The sort of uncouth guardsmen we are referring to would swear regularly, using the worst and most offensive words possible. It's as simple as that, and no sane person could argue with it.

Any movement away from that natural position requires an argument, and an 'I don't want to hear words I hear in other games' argument is not even close to adequate, given that you are quite happy to hear thousands of other words which appear regularly in other games.

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

In fact, imagine what an immersion killing experience it would be to not only lock a bunch of guards up with some barrels and crates in a hallway but then have them stand around bitching about someone locking the door behind them.

Took me 4 times to re-read it to see the lapse in logic...

 

From Wikipedia Fuck: Some time around 1600, before the term acquired its current meaning, "windfucker" was an acceptable name for the bird now known as the kestrel.

- Makes me want to model and skin a kestrel just for TDM and call him by his medieval name.

 

I'm for no limitations/censorship of speech in TDM. I don't hear fuck often in my life and it doesn't break the atmosphere one iota. Other things break it more, like a ceiling made from flat wall-bricks which theoretically should fall any minute.

[Gildoran]

Makes me want to model and skin a kestrel just for TDM and call him by his medieval name.

Heh, I'm all for that.

[Elusive_Thief]

With reguards to swear words, can we please leave the French out of this. Most curse words are french- go figure.

Edited July 13, 2006 by Elusive_Thief

[SneaksieDave]

Hey, maybe we could have a "cuss pack." Die By The Sword had one.

[Dram]

Oh god, not this again.....

 

We already discussed this in the Dev forums and I believe we concluded that we won't be using fuck etc. I really don't care if they say fuck or damn, but I'd say using damn makes the game sound more sophisticated then fuck.

[Komag]

I wonder how Gone With the Wind would have sold if he said "Frankly my dear, I don't give a F***!"

[Maximius]

Took me 4 times to re-read it to see the lapse in logic...

 

What lapse in whose logic?

[oDDity]

I don't mind if they don't use 'the worst' swear words, just as long as you all admit that the reason you dont' want them used is entirely a puritanical one. At least Komag has the decency to admit that, while the rest of you try to think up laughable excuses to avoid it, becasue yoiu know how sad and pathetic it makes you to admit you don't like to hear naughty words, because your parents told you they weren't nice when you were 5.

Just admit that, let me have a good, long laugh at you, despise you a bit more than I already naturally do, and then I'll be happy.

I can't be any fairer than that.

[Dram]

LOL, I stand by my saying I don't care whichever is used.

[ZylonBane]

I don't mind if they don't use 'the worst' swear words, just as long as you all admit that the reason you dont' want them used is entirely a puritanical one.

Fine, here are three:

 

Language like that is boring. I think pretty much everyone would rather hear, "Have at you!" than "Die, fucker!".

 

Thief builds its fictional universe by combining iconic elements of various historical time periods. One of the most important of those iconic elements is the language. Conventional epithets like fuck and shit are perceived as contemporary language (blame Shakespeare if you must). Thus, using them in a game that attempts to evoke the Victorian/Elizabethan period undermines that effort.

 

Thief is played primarily by geeks. Geeks love made-up swear words. So taff the frack off, ya frelling smeg-head.