Not A Ttlg Slagging Thread...but I Just Have To Say Something.

[New Horizon]

Had to say this here to get it off my chest.

 

I was just reading another thread today that someone posted about Komag's ban. I hadn't realized that this was a permanent ban. Sorry TTLG, but that is just completely over the top. A PERMANENT ban? Jesus Christ, for what? Advertising that he had a few games for sale on Ebay? Hardly worthy of a permanent ban. I don't care how many warnings were issued...it's simply not that huge a crime. Whose feelings were hurt here? Was somebody offended? Nobody was being taken advantage of, they either chose to bid on the games or not.

 

There are far worse things going on in that Forum than someone calmly posting that they have games for sale. You come into TTLG and expect that you're amongst friends. You could use the argument that it would be the equivalent of setting up a yardsale on your neighbors lawn...yeah, that could be rationalized as an argument, but it's not the same. This is the internet.

 

When you see this type of 'you are trying to get into my pocket book' type of thinking on a global scale, you notice how some guys are getting longer jail sentences than somebody who killed someone. Do we place THAT much importance on our money? I really don't see the punishment fitting the crime on this one. Even if you did react and talk back to them Komag, it doesn't warrant a lifetime ban. There are some real assholes floating around TTLG, making the place completely unpleasant and yet they walk around completely free. Oh, they might get a little tap on the hand once in awhile, but nothing permanent.

 

Anyway, that's the view from here.

[ascottk]

I was just reading that thread too. That's pathetic. I was tempted to reply but the thread was closed. And there's been some hostile/impatient/rude users in the t3ed guild. Would you expect help if you insulted everyone in that forum?

[BrokenArts]

I agree, if you cross them on a bad day, sorry, watch out. It's BS. And it is over the top. Their attitudes sometimes, leave little to be desired. I hardly post their myself anymore.

Edited August 8, 2006 by BrokenArts

[Darkness_Falls]

I would like to see the thread so get the context and to look at past Komag posts. What is the URL of the thread in question?

 

Biohazard says Komag is just in timeout for a short while here (in the last post): http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107693

 

EDIT: Still can't find the thread where Komag messed up. Maybe they deleted that thread entirely? Oh well. If there were ttlg threads where a flame-war or something similar ensued, please feel free to post link here. I'm curious about the warning Komag received, etc. A moderator says he was warned and didn't obey, so maybe that was done in Personal Messages rather than in the TTLG forums.

[Fingernail]

To be honest the fact it's an unspecified time doesn't really mean anything - there are lots of cases of members get banned then eventually get back after a while, either through re-registering or whatever, implicitly allowed by the admins as they put enough distance between them and their past selves, as it were.

 

And yeah, it would be silly to say that it's not run by people in a fairly personal manner. The admins have their own personalities and views, biases or whatever, but I do know from experience that they are usually pretty fair - they'll give more chances to people who demonstrate an ability and desire to change, or to those who are generally fine but slip up once or twice, and show less leniency to people who have had difficult histories or past run-ins.

 

It's not democratic by any stretch but then it's more like a club than a country, and I'm sure when we all signed up we skimmed happily over the part that reads about how they reserve the right to ban us - after all, we didn't pay anything.

[sparhawk]

And yeah, it would be silly to say that it's not run by people in a fairly personal manner. The admins have their own personalities and views, biases or whatever, but I do know from experience that they are usually pretty fair - they'll give more chances to people who demonstrate an ability and desire to change, or to those who are generally fine but slip up once or twice, and show less leniency to people who have had difficult histories or past run-ins.

 

You sure you talk about the same TTLG and it's admins that I know? Strange...

 

It's not democratic by any stretch but then it's more like a club than a country, and I'm sure when we all signed up we skimmed happily over the part that reads about how they reserve the right to ban us - after all, we didn't pay anything.

 

So what? Just because we don't pay for it means we have to put up with their attitude? The internet is full of free services. It's nto as if running a forum is SUCH an exclusive thing that you have to lick their feets just to get a member. I don't know whats more desiceable . Admins that abuse their puny position, or people definding them.

[Gildoran]

So what? Just because we don't pay for it means we have to put up with their attitude? The internet is full of free services. It's nto as if running a forum is SUCH an exclusive thing that you have to lick their feets just to get a member. I don't know whats more desiceable . Admins that abuse their puny position, or people definding them.

Then feel free to start your own LGS forum... Since TTLG is their forum, they can be as hypocritical or tyrannical as they like. And people can always choose to avoid their forums.

 

Of course, it's a great shame if the admins behave that way...

[ascottk]

Well, it's unprofessional for admins to behave as such. TTLG is the most active forum for the looking glass games and former devs visit that forum every now & then. Would you want to turn off developers from your favorite game? I can see it now: "I'd like the Thief community to know about about such & such but I'd rather not deal with those asshole admins . . . "

[New Horizon]

Then feel free to start your own LGS forum... Since TTLG is their forum, they can be as hypocritical or tyrannical as they like. And people can always choose to avoid their forums.

 

I have no problem with forums being moderated with a slightly heavy hand, but it would be nice if some of the bombastic, offensive morons who post there could be dealt with as swiftly. Instead, they roam around...insulting, offending, and just downright annoying everyone. I place a higher value on the well being of others over the absolute administration of 'rules'.

[sparhawk]

I have not a big problem if a forum is moderated heavily. I don't like it, but it's ok. But at least the rules should be the same for everybody, and not be at the whim of an admin. If he has a bad day because his girlfirend didn't let him mount then he bans some people, while on another day the same 'offense' doesn't even cause a warning.

[Vadrosaul]

Well, what can be said? Welcome to the IntARnet!!

[Komag]

I've gotten quite a few emials and pms from friendly "concerned citizens" recently wondering what's going on, and some recent forum discussion going on (as this thread evidences).

 

I'm not a vengeful or hateful person or anything, so I don't hate TTLG or the admins there, but I think the community does deserve a longer more fleshed out explanation of the whole situation and history.

 

I'll put it on the Keep soon (like maybe today). And I'll try to be as honest and fair as possible, freely admitting any negatives on my part. As I've thought about it and tried to remember things and also tried to see how stuff might look from their perspective, I can understand that it's not just one sided. In other words, I think I'm "innocent" for all serious intents and purposes, but I can understand partially how it would look otherwise.

 

But just a quite note - as far as I know, it's a permanent ban.

[OrbWeaver]

If he has a bad day because his girlfirend didn't let him mount

 

<spits drink over keyboard>

[BrokenArts]

Rules are rules, and they should be followed, not bent like a pretzel using favoritism, It's obvious some members get away with more than others, plain fact. Diplomacy, and tact, no matter who you are, should be used for every single member. Oh well, doesn't always happen now, does it.

[ascottk]

Well, there's still the thief fan mission forum. Less problems & probably the friendliest forum on ttlg. Although the friendliness seems a little too sappy for my taste

[demagogue]

Yeah, friendly almost to a fault.

 

Re: Komag, I tend to think that it was actually fairness that was motivating them, since it's probably not cool for an admin to be accused of favoritism where they allow old members to bend rules and not newbies ... since if Komag got away with it, nothing could stop any guy and a bot from advertising this and that, since they'd all point to his thread in their defense. And it is their responsibility to be fair if nothing else.

 

And the difference between what Komag did and a lot of the worse-seeming trolling going on isn't so much how *bad* what he did was, but how *clearly* it broke the rules, which pushed the admins in a corner where their decision was sort of made for them as a matter of policy, nothing deeper than that. So no one can blame them for the slap on the wrist.

 

It's really the "permanent" part that seems excessive, since there's no reason to expect Komag to keep getting himself into trouble; although he was a little defiant like he expected special treatment, but that's just what slaps on the wrist are for. But there are so many cases where they've let people quietly slip back into the fold without a lot of fanfare when they seem to have demonstrated that they're off their old problem track and genuinely want to get back into the community and contribute, which Komag seems the poster-child for, and I think they even prefer that kind of outcome as the admins have suggested before.

 

The catch here is that it's actually generating some fanfare, so I can see how the admins could be a little split between formally defending their decision for the same reasons mentioned above while informally acknowledging that things will be cool with a little time after K's learned his lesson. That's why I think the best thing is probably for everyone to be cool about it and let things work behind the scenes than to make a lot of noise about it. Still, one can't help but see it in symbolic terms, I guess, and try to find some bigger picture of what it implies. It's just the way the situation played out.

Edited August 6, 2006 by demagogue

[Komag]

I don't want to cause any problem or rift between forums or anything. But for my full story and point of view on this whole deal, anyone can now read it all at Metal and Gold

[Darkness_Falls]

Sorry to read that. Yeah, that sucks.

 

a. Who remembers every aspect of a legal disclaimer way after they've signed-up to a forum? I don't remember any one point regarding the ttlg.com forum's disclaimer (except for the one you pointed out in your explanation.

 

b. A warning would've been nice -- probably a moral imperative, actually -- especially if you've been a respected member of the Thief community for a while. I don't know you, so I don't know how respected you are; what you've done; or how you normally act there I think I heard you maybe made a fan mission or something, so that's at least a start

 

I just think it's wrong to ban someone for something seemingly so trivial, considering all the other put-downs and stuff I see going on at ttlg.

 

PS: I noticed this part about the disclaimer, which I see broken practically every time I visit that forum. Why 75% of the users there aren't banned by now is beyond me:

No Abusive Behaviour.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this Forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, abusive, hateful, harassing, obscene, sexually explicit, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. Hate speech is not tolerated. We will not tolerate abuse upon another member.

[Domarius]

*comes out of off-topic lurk*

 

Actually, this IS a TTLG slagging thread.

 

But fairly justified.

 

There IS going to be a rift between forums.

 

Komag, I think there's a lesson to be learned there though - stay out of off topic chat. Works for me

[Dram]

Just read the thread in question.

 

No need to worry about extortion any more, Komag has been banned *ttlg thumbs up emoticon here*

- we should blacklist this guy.

[New Horizon]

Well, it was not meant to slag on TTLG directly, so much as it was to express my disappointment in their moderating practices.

 

As Darkness Falls pointed out, abusive behaviour is tolerated. I could give a rats ass if someone posts about selling a game or two, what upsets me when I go to TTLG are the vast number of morons being abusive. My faith in the mods has been severly shaken.

[Dram]

Well, it was not meant to slag on TTLG directly, so much as it was to express my disappointment in their moderating practices.

 

As Darkness Falls pointed out, abusive behaviour is tolerated. I could give a rats ass if someone posts about selling a game or two, what upsets me when I go to TTLG are the vast number of morons being abusive. My faith in the mods has been severly shaken.

 

Aye

[sparhawk]

I don't want to cause any problem or rift between forums or anything. But for my full story and point of view on this whole deal, anyone can now read it all at Metal and Gold

 

Where? I only saw a link back to this forum.

[Fingernail]

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Surely this explains absolutely everything you all seem to have trouble getting.

[OrbWeaver]

Surely this explains absolutely everything you all seem to have trouble getting.

 

Nobody has any trouble understanding it. That does not, however, mean that people have to agree with it or have no right to complain about it.

 

I have the right to throw somebody out of my house for any reason, without warning or right of appeal (unless they are a police or customs officer or some other special case). That does not mean that said person is not entitled to consider me an ass for doing so, and to say so in front of their friends or the general public if they so wish.