Jan 3 Update: More Ai Smartness

[Maximius]

Ombrenuit:

I don't know how pick pocketing should be handled; but I always loved pick-pocketing guards and having it go unnoticed. I'd say the rate of failure should something rare, like 10% and only set the guard on alert mode. That way it would make you feel cool and keep the tension up.

 

I can agree with that, my idea was for specially designated keys or objects to attract more/faster attention when they go missing. Imagine a Builder cathedral fortress, the captain of the guard is assigned to the holy relic vault. He carries the key at his waist. You snatch it and then take another two hours to get into the vault while the captains blithely carrying on his patrol? No way. That keys absence would not be out of notice for long, I can tell you from personal experience as a military guard. It would make some narrative sense as well to have a hierarchy of pickpocketable items, if a guards lunch or coinpurse gets stolen he should flip out a bit but hes also going to suspect his comrades or the cook, not necessarily a thief. THe reaction need not be a general alarm. But if the key to the Builders vault disappears, that a far different problem.

 

O:As for the save zones idea, I've never liked the idea of repeating section B of the game to get to section C only to die and have to go through Section B again.

 

You could still save before C, maybe in the middle of C, certainly at the end. But within certain patches of C, in certain situations in C, maybe not. I don't know that it could work with certainty but I agree with Gildoran that its worth a look as a sort of narrative/gameplay hybrid to effect heightened tension in certain situations. But elusive thief makes a point about being able to quicksave and set up certain situations or time ambushes and such. It is ultimately a style issue, I would include both versions in a map with the proviso "Play it this way for the first time, when all the surprises are fresh and the tension is at its finest, then play it the second way to dissect the map and ambush all the AIs or easter egg hunt or try to climb out ofthe map or whatever."

 

Thats all Ill say Dom, promise!

[SneaksieDave]

Hey I reserve the right not to get it too!

 

If a mappers puts some zones in a map and tells me I can't save here or there, and I'll open that map up and rip the zones out and recompile. And redistribute!

 

Looking forward to player-optional playstyle selections someday.

[Domarius]

What he doesn't get is that it's not about self control. Wether you personally like it or not, doesn't bother me.

 

The other thing is, he's the only one still critisizing us for something that is an emotional preference.

[ZylonBane]

Given the save zone examples, how can you still be harping on about "self control" when we're talking about integrating it in the gameplay? A player can't do that, that's a mappers job.

Umm, wow. Apparently you actually need this explained to you. Okay...

 

I can still be "harping" about it because all the arguments against restricted saving are still just as valid no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's a user setting or a mapper setting or an entire mission or only part of it-- the only thing that matters is the end effect.

 

Thus, save zones are just as horrible an idea as save points and bookmark saves.

[ascottk]

Hey! It's NylonBrain!

[Crispy]

Can we keep the insults to a minimum, please?

 

It is a personal preference, it will not be forced on anyone, and I for one am getting pretty sick of this topic. Can we stop talking about it now?

[Domarius]

I can still be "harping" about it because all the arguments against restricted saving are still just as valid no matter what.

And all the arguments for them are still valid no matter what. Because you have your reasons for hating them, and we have our reasons for liking them.

It doesn't matter if it's a user setting or a mapper setting or an entire mission or only part of it-- the only thing that matters is the end effect.

And some of us like the end effect, and some of us don't.

 

You might as well be critisising me for liking sushi. I've still got my reasons for liking it, no matter how many people hate it.

[Nyarlathotep]

Actually, wouldn't it be fairly simple to add no-save-zones and then add a player-option to forcibly ignore them? A mapper could put them in place, but if a player, like Zylon-Blade, hates the concept of not being able to save in the middle of a poker game, for example, he could turn it off. More importantly, if a mapper decides to abuse their power, such as putting the entire map in one big no-save-zone, the player can tun it off. Give the mapper power, but give the player the right to a veto.

 

Either way, add a bookmark save (one that doesn't get turned off in a no-save-zone). If a player decides to quit in the middle of a no-save-zone, then he won't be punished by not being able to save.

[ZylonBane]

You might as well be critisising me for liking sushi. I've still got my reasons for liking it, no matter how many people hate it.

And therein lies the problem-- as much as you like sushi, you actually like "egg rolls" better. But egg rolls give you gas. You know you should ignore the egg rolls and stick with the sushi, but you don't have a damn shred of willpower, so instead you lobby the restaurant to remove egg rolls entirely, so NOBODY can have them.

[Crispy]

This thread reminds me of a pack of dogs chasing their own tails. Around, and around, and around, and around, and around...

 

(Seriously, somebody has to do the right thing and stop this or the thread will be 20 pages long and there still won't be any new arguments in it. )

[Springheel]

This isn't the first thread on the subject, and I doubt it will be the last.

[Nyarlathotep]

(Seriously, somebody has to do the right thing and stop this or the thread will be 20 pages long and there still won't be any new arguments in it. )

I was hoping my post would at least take the thread in a slightly new direction, but so far it appears to have been entirely ignored...

[Gildoran]

Actually, despite that I like to argue that quicksaving should be considered a cheat, your post pretty much describes what I'd like to see. (except instead of having code specific to save-points, I think it should be general purpose enough to allow mappers to come up with new mechanisms)

[Domarius]

...but you don't have a damn shred of willpower...

I've said over and over again, it's not about willpower.

 

Mappers would place the restrictions in a way that they feel makes sense. Of course if you don't enjoy this sort of thing, you will never understand why someone would want to do that. Just like someone who hates the taste of seaweed paper not understanding how someone could enjoy sushi.

 

so instead you lobby the restaurant to remove egg rolls entirely, so NOBODY can have them.

I've said, over and over again, it would be optional for the player.

 

This thread reminds me of a pack of dogs chasing their own tails. Around, and around, and around, and around, and around...

Yes, I have the same feeling, and am not finding the discussion entertaining anymore. ZB seems to be stuck in an infinite loop on his last couple of arguments.

 

I have to conclude - either he's unable to accept that someone can experience something differently to him, and can't read the word "optional" in my posts, OR, he's just recycling his last two arguments no matter what I say - just so he can have the last say. I don't know how anyone could find that entertaining... but I respect that some people do, and am going to let him have the last say.

[kohan69]

ZylonBane and Domarius - get a room

 

1.

Save Zones - brilliant! (no sarcasm)

 

Player thinking "that's a lot of guards there, I better save", hits F5

Garret's voice: 'I cannot save here'

PLayer hits F5 again

Garret's voice: 'It's not safe to save here'

Player hits F5 yet again

Garret's voice: 'Saving here is not allowed'

PLayer furiously taps F5

Garret's voice: 'Stop smashing that keyboard ye taffer, the guards might hear!'

 

2.

What about slightly loosening the saving zones idea

PLayer can only save when he's in total darkness (black lightgem), and no guard is in high alert - now that's an idea!

 

3.

Here's an idea I just got from oldschool SNES rpg games.

What if save=nap? Follow me here: If player saves, it takes out 3 minutes of the future!

So player saves, and reloads, the reload is 3 minutes in the future (and if guard sees player during 3 min, it = death?)

the idea isnt working state now, but it could be practicated out

 

4.

Springheel you are wrong with your movie comparison - you can always 'pause' the game to take a leak or answer the door by hitting ESC "Though, if you're just poking fun and not trying to make a point, that's okay."

 

 

5.

Imagine a Builder cathedral fortress, the captain of the guard is assigned to the holy relic vault. He carries the key at his waist. You snatch it and then take another two hours to get into the vault while the captains blithely carrying on his patrol? No way. That keys absence would not be out of notice for long, I can tell you from personal experience as a military guard. It would make some narrative sense as well to have a hierarchy of pickpocketable items, if a guards lunch or coinpurse gets stolen he should flip out a bit but hes also going to suspect his comrades or the cook, not necessarily a thief. THe reaction need not be a general alarm. But if the key to the Builders vault disappears, that a far different problem.

 

Will the player be able to put-pocket it back on the guard? or say, leave it on a table within his patrol, so when he see's it, he wil lnot be alert anymore (sounds liek advanced ai to me, a mother--- to program)

 

6.

It is a personal preference, it will not be forced on anyone, and I for one am getting pretty sick of this topic. Can we stop talking about it now?

 

Thank you, I tried hinting on that a few pages back with

 

So how does the AI compare notes notes? Do they only do that in alert mode or do they exchange information if they stroll by each other after an incident (noise, seeing strange movement, etc) ?

 

As much as I support free discussion, saving is a far stretch from Ai Smartness

[Maximius]

kohan:

2.

What about slightly loosening the saving zones idea

PLayer can only save when he's in total darkness (black lightgem), and no guard is in high alert - now that's an idea!

 

3.

Here's an idea I just got from oldschool SNES rpg games.

What if save=nap? Follow me here: If player saves, it takes out 3 minutes of the future!

So player saves, and reloads, the reload is 3 minutes in the future (and if guard sees player during 3 min, it = death?)

the idea isnt working state now, but it could be practicated out

 

These are interesting ideas, I like the ideas of the total darkness and the nap scenario. Of course, both would have to be heavily playtested and both would have to be optional in settings.

 

k69:

5.

Will the player be able to put-pocket it back on the guard? or say, leave it on a table within his patrol, so when he see's it, he wil lnot be alert anymore (sounds liek advanced ai to me, a mother--- to program)

 

 

Thats an idea, you have about 3 minutes to open the door and then replace the key, I had thought using a decoy that you would put-pocket on the guard immediately after lifting the real key. Perhaps this could be a sub mission, you have to scout out the design of the real key first so a buddy can make a knock off of it.

[Gildoran]

Here's an idea I just got from oldschool SNES rpg games.

What if save=nap? Follow me here: If player saves, it takes out 3 minutes of the future!

So player saves, and reloads, the reload is 3 minutes in the future (and if guard sees player during 3 min, it = death?)

the idea isnt working state now, but it could be practicated out

That sounds like a very interesting way of doing things, and seems like a pretty good heuristic to encourage the player to only save in safe areas without limiting them to areas the mapper thinks are ok. I'd love to see how that works out. I think it would be do-able in D3. (cinematics are kind of similar - when you hit escape, they start simulating time as fast as they can, until they detect the end of the cinematic)

[ZylonBane]

1.

Save Zones - brilliant! (no sarcasm)

 

Player thinking "that's a lot of guards there, I better save", hits F5

Garret's voice: 'I cannot save here'

More likely scenario--

 

Player thinking: "Whoops, I gotta go, I'll save here and pick up later", hits F5

Garret's voice: 'I cannot save here'

Player saying: @#$%!!

[Gildoran]

More likely scenario--

Player thinking: "Whoops, I gotta go, I'll save here and pick up later", hits F5

Garret's voice: 'I cannot save here'

Player saying: I'll just use a bookmark save.

 

I think your repeated demonstrations of a lack of understanding about bookmark saves are intentional so that you can argue against a straw man of limited saves.

[Springheel]

What is the difference between a bookmark save and a quicksave?

[Gildoran]

A bookmark save ends the current map when saved, and can only be loaded once (assuming the user doesn't back up the save file). In cases where you only want to quit the game and later continue without losing progress, it fulfills your needs perfectly. (and of course, you can stop and continue playing as much as you like) However, unlike a quicksave, it doesn't provide you with the ability to replay from an arbitrary state any number of times.

[Springheel]

What this all seems to come down to is how much risk people feel they need in order to enjoy themselves. Some people are content to play poker for chips and go home with nothing but bragging rights. Other people can't find any excitement in it unless their life savings are on the line. You're never going to convince one to play like the other, and there are lots of ways to play in between

[ZylonBane]

That's the crux of the issue. To advocates of limited saving in all its forms, the game is more important than Real Life.

[Gildoran]

Bookmark saves are only intended to address the issue of being able to continue where you left off. The reason I keep bringing them up is because people like ZylonBane keep saying "What if I need to quit and continue the game later? Then I'm screwed with limited saves!", which I don't consider a valid argument in light of bookmark saves.

 

I have to admit arguments about crashes/etc are at least a valid, but depending on the map, a combination of approaches may be able to handle most situations fairly well. For example, consider a map that uses the nap-save idea to allow the player to save their progress in any place that's safe, in combination with autosaves before traps and at the start of dialog. The player can keep on saving their progress in appropriate spots as they go, and if they activate a trap or miss a line of dialog, the game has already provided them with more recent saves so that they don't lose much progress. Yet at the same time, they can't just quicksave right in the middle of looting a heavily patrolled vault. (though if they needed to quit and continue later, they could of course still use a bookmark save)

[ZylonBane]

I understand the concept of bookmark saves perfectly well. I'm also ignoring them, because it's a revoltingly useless "nanny" concept. If someone wants to abuse unlimited save-anywhere to ruin their own fun, well... that's their problem. I use unlimited saves to replay my favorite parts of games, thereby enhancing my fun.