15 replies to this topic

[Springheel]

Interesting...our only 'similar mod' on moddb has switched to the HL2 SDK for its production.

[SneaksieDave]

The SDK has been out one day and that decision is made? I wonder what the motivation was.

For me personally, if all of the garbage about steam is true and unavoidable, I won't be playing HL2 in it's current state.

Sad thing is, that just enough people (Just enough? Almost the entire gaming population, more likely) will buy it and support this model, resulting in the highest yields for a game ever by far, and we will soon see most games adopting this means. Thanks, Valve, for your insight. Perhaps a merger with Microsoft soon?

[god_is_my_goldfish]

Oh come off it, steam isn't that bad. Yes it's got some flaws but i haven't had many problems with it.

[SneaksieDave]

Come off it?

I'm not referring to 'problems' with steam - it's larger than that. If you are comfortable with their 'delivery system' and what using it involves and means in the big picture, okay. I'm not. I happen to think it's another case where producers of a product are forcing something on people, and people are bending over and taking without protest. There are countless products and companies that can serve as further examples in everything ranging from automobiles to toothpaste (yes, toothpaste). I don't want any part of it; though, as I said - it's probably the way of the future, and there's no avoiding it as long as the masses accept it.

That topic alone could spark a huge philosophical debate about the "way things are" versus the "way things should be"... but I don't feel like it right now.

Edited by SneaksieDave, 02 December 2004 - 12:27 AM.

[sparhawk]

Oh come off it, steam isn't that bad. Yes it's got some flaws but i haven't had many problems with it.

I (We?) am not talking about the trechnical issues. It's more the legal implications that are my concern.
I can't sell the game if I don't like it, because I have no CD, which is a requirement here.
I'm forced to have an internet connection.
I'm forced to register.
I have games that are about ten years old. What if Valve decides in five years that it don't wants to support my game anymore?
What if Valve decides in two years that registered customers have to pay an additional fee (despite having payed the price for the game)? Electronic Arts already did this to some extent.
What if Valve decides that it wants micropayment pay-per-game? Some Musiclables are already have plans for that and don't tell me that game companies wouldn't do that. Players not accepting that? Why not? It's only fair and it doesn't hurt THAT much. This argument applies always and companies do exactly for this reason gradual changes where each step "is not THAT bad".

Why do I have to register at all? I just want to play single player and I'm not even interested in multiplayer.

Always remember: Companies do their stuff for money. Not for the customers. MS gives away IE for free? Why? Because it loves it's customers? Valve does this to protect the online comunity from cheating? Get real! Copyprotection? Steam doesn't prevent pirating.

[sparhawk]

For me personally, if all of the garbage about steam is true and unavoidable, I won't be playing HL2 in it's current state.

We already discussed this and we decided to go with D3. There are many reasons to stick to D3 and steam is only one of many. Of course it is a quite important one.

[Springheel]

My main interest was wondering whether or not we might be able to pick up disgruntled team members who don't want to switch to HL2. But it seems like Fingernail is already working on that.

[sparhawk]

My main interest was wondering whether or not we might be able to pick up disgruntled team members who don't want to switch to HL2. But it seems like Fingernail is already working on that.

Yes. I thought the same. Now that HL2 is out, there might be many poor orphaned developers looking for a cozy D3 home. How to find them?

[SneaksieDave]

...micropayment pay-per-game? Some Musiclables are already have plans for that...

Argh! Yes, I've seen that! And some places like... what was it - it might be napster or maybe those apple music sites? I can't remember - anyway, they have a subscription fee. So, if I understand correctly, you join up and get whatever you want (from what they have) but you pay monthly to use it.

What is happening to the world! Good lord. Stop accepting it, people.

I tell you what, this ensures one thing for the future.

Everything owned = stolen.

Everything owned = stolen.

(Repeating it was not a typo.)

Does anyone care realize that when UO starts a subscription at 9.99/mo, and EQ follows, and then EQ goes to 12.99, and then EQ2 goes to 14.99, everyone else follows suit... etc - there is not going to be a downward trend, only upward. Their "maintenance profits" have increased by 50%! Was $5 million a month in fees not enough? How about cars costing $6K when I was a kid, and Cadillacs were the "rich man's car", but today, you're hard pressed to find a freakin' Honda for less than $25K - and there are Chevys that cost as much as your neighbor's BMW? Something's wrong. Stop accepting it! Oh man don't get me started on this! I beg. *deep breath*

How to find them?

Doom3world.org seems to be the hot place. List more if you know them!

[Fingernail]

There is such a thing as inflation in terms of subscription prices. But you're also used to technology becoming cheaper, so perhaps you've noticed it less than some.

As games have become more popular over the years, the price has stayed the same (about £35 for a new PC title, £40 for a console one, dropping to £30 and £35 respectively after a few weeks), whereas house prices and music prices have all risen fairly dramatically (partly because of the piracy problem with the music industry).

In the US, I could live in a far bigger house than I can in the UK.

These are all simple economic changes based on supply, demand, economies around the world.

Bottom line: I don't believe that Valve are trying to spy on us, treat us as criminals, or anything of the sort. There is no spyware or adware with Steam beyond what Valve sell through it, and you're not bombarded by popups.

I think they're just trying to avoid giving all of their hard-earned profits to Vivendi, who are a faceless corporation, more concerned with profit than the quality of their games.

Expensive applications have had this kind of copy protection for a while now, I'm not too bothered.

[SneaksieDave]

whereas house prices and music prices have all risen fairly dramatically

Absolutely. In my little town, $225k bought a mansion (literally - I mean a huge place) up on the bluffs overlooking the river, 14 short years ago. I know, because it was the family of a close friend. I remember thinking to myself, with an internal laugh, "those rich bastards paid almost a QUARTER OF A MILLION FOR A HOUSE!!" as if it was such a big deal. Today, the friend himself paid $275k for a place half the size (same town). There was just a home for sale on main street for $900k. This is not Beverly Hills, just a fairly quaint, semi-nice town. The average price for an average place around here (yard, 3 floors, etc) is around $400k. To think that the house I was born in some ~30 years ago (3 floors, basement, big yard, driveway) was $15k makes me dizzy.

Inflation, yes - but a "middle class paycheck" has not changed anywhere near as much as real estate (and cars, etc). I feel people accept too much. If no one bought, there'd be no choice for manufacturers and sellers but to produce and offer for less or go under. If suddenly 400k players said to Sony, "we're not paying our subscription this month, as a unified player base, unless it comes down to $9.99 again", you better believe that price would drop. Now that would be an interesting precedent, wouldn't it.

Must. Resist. Topic.

Re: Valve - I don't honestly think they're up to shenanigans, either. But it's a model I don't want to support. At least... not until/unless I have little other choice.

[sparhawk]

Re: Valve - I don't honestly think they're up to shenanigans, either. But it's a model I don't want to support. At least... not until/unless I have little other choice.

Yeah. That sums it up pretty well for me.

I try to avoid this topic like hell. Don't want to start it up again.

[Kappow]

Oh my God, are you trying to say that the future will be more expensive?!?!?

Unfortunatly, that is a fact. Games are steadily getting more and more pricy, even the boxed versions. A content delivery system like Steam isn't a bad idea, and for the short term, a subscription fee could be a cheaper, more economical choice for some gamers. I can't say I particularily like the future, but we might as well be optimistic.

[sparhawk]

Oh my God, are you trying to say that the future will be more expensive?!?!?

No. I say that companies start to think about ways how to get even more money out of you without additional benefit.

You want to listen to that tune twice? Then you have to pay twice. It's only logical isn't it? But actually it is a benefit for you as a customer. You only want to listen to it once, you only pay for it once. Now you pay for several songs on a CD even though you might only listen to this one. What a great benefit this is. I can't wait until musiclables will do this.

Oh! You thought of that smart idea putting a link on website? Bad luck! I thought about this one week before you and now pay your fee for my idea. What a good thing patent laws are.

You payed for this programm? Well, that was last month. We have a new month now and you must pay again. Oh! you couldn't use it because of the copyprotetion? But that's your problem. You could buy a better CD drive after all. Why should I be bothered with this if you have crappy hardware. Copyprotection is good for you as a customer. It protects you from all kind of things.

... to be continued ...

[SneaksieDave]

If it all continues, the treatment of those who legitimately pay for a product will continue to degenerate, while pirates will continue to enjoy cracked versions without concern.

At least until the masses stand up and say "no more."

[geX]

I don't hate HL2 or steam, ist just that you can't change editor right away. And i think doom3 is more like a zombie game. HEHE! but me and rgun really talked for it about a week, and i can really see the posebilityes of using source, becouse that really blow him away and got some really nice ideas for the mod and the missions. witch i ofcourse can't speak of here. And our streets in doom3 became laggy when we put some models in and even we made viportals it couldn't work
So now i can't make medieval strugtures any more.HEH. Well..... nothing to do about it. HAMMER SUCKS!