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Your 5 Best Games Ever


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#26 Macsen

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:39 PM

Your goal is not to create a much innovated mod! Your goal is support the Thief community.

I'm not sure what the Thief community, namely the TTLG forum, has done to derserve such support. I'd rather think most of the team members were working on this mod to create something they enjoy playing, rather than doing volunteer work for an insane asylum.

My hope is of course that when the basic foundations are in place people will take the basic thief game, and the stealth genre, in directions they couldn't with the Dark Engine. I'd be disappointed if DM just ended up a prettier version of Thief.

#27 Nyarlathotep

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 05:48 PM

Agreed. That's why I came here--I could have always looked elsewhere, after all. I hope that TDM will encourage modders to explore other templates, such as a more combat-oriented or RPG-like template. While strictly new templates are never created by mixing and matching older ones, it still produces a massive variety; one that has yet to be sufficiently exploited in the mainstream.

Yup, I know what you mean. We are complaining about game companies doing always the same, copying old ideas, and we essentially do the same. :) But, well, that was the definition of the project, and we never claimed to do otherwise. At least not in a substantial way. But I think that work that we are doing here, could at least be used as a foundation for completly different games as well. So we will see what comes from it.

For me, the main reason we should restrict ourselves to variations on Thief's template is simply due to a lack of resources, nothing more. I for one have always wanted to experiment with Thief as a strictly skill-based MMO, using a combination of instancing/globals and procedurals/hand-placement to produce the metropolis that is the City. Obviously, this would be unachievable without massive resources, and even then it would be unduly restrictive.

Another idea I've wanted to explore is integrating the wiimote with TDM to completely change how users perceive its gameplay. For now, it's little more than a pipe-dream, as there is much work to be done beforehand.

In the end, I'll be fine with others taking up the mantle and going far beyond my own limited imagination. B)

#28 demagogue

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 07:27 PM

Sorry, this is a total aside and I guess we've left the original topic behind.

But when I was doing the ranking in my last post, I wasn't going to just put Thief just because of this site. I justified my top five as the ones I spent the most time and affection on playing them. Looking back, I realize they are the games I mapped (except for civilization for obvious reasons, and not really Deus Ex ... it gets in on story alone).

Then it suddenly occured to me just now that after the C64 days, the only game I've ever really had to map was Thief, because it was the only game that ever had even the potential for me to get lost. It was suddenly a very telling moment, so I thought I'd share.

Ok, I'll leave you guys back to your M.O./existential debate now.
I don't need a reason to be here.

Edited by demagogue, 16 March 2007 - 07:29 PM.

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#29 Crispy

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 08:42 PM

I hope that TDM will encourage modders to explore other templates

Me too! Having an open source stealth game will provide lots of opportunity to experiment with pushing the genre in new directions. Just because we're not setting out to be innovative, that doesn't mean our work can't be used as a base on which to innovate. Especially since D3 is so easy to tweak.

I for one have always wanted to experiment with Thief as a strictly skill-based MMO

Hey, me too. :) That's assuming you're talking about "skill-based" as in "player skill", not as in RPG stats.

Another idea I've wanted to explore is integrating the wiimote with TDM to completely change how users perceive its gameplay. For now, it's little more than a pipe-dream, as there is much work to be done beforehand.

Once the D3 engine is GPLed, this should definitely be possible! There are programs that allow you to use the wiimote on a PC, I've seen them in action.

Of course you're right that all of this is contingent on getting TDM finished... back to work everyone. ;)
My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.

#30 oDDity

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 02:45 AM

If we're talking about game I spent the most time playing, then Everquest would have to be in my top 3, but it's wasn't a particularly good game, just addictive, which is not the same thing.
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#31 Mr Mike

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 06:33 AM

Part of the reason why I stopped working on it. I lost interest due to the intransigence of the majority of the team to do anything even remotely innovative, or move the 10 year old stealth genre onwards in any way.


Innovations such as...?

#32 oDDity

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 06:58 AM

I can't be bothered trawling though my 5000 old posts over the years to find my ideas, not to mention the other ideas people had that were shelved.
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#33 New Horizon

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 07:28 AM

I can't be bothered trawling though my 5000 old posts over the years to find my ideas, not to mention the other ideas people had that were shelved.


Well, as was said a 100 times oDD. Many of your ideas would be fun to try out for the campaign, they just had no place in a toolset that is intended to act as a spiritual successor to Thief 1 and 2. When the toolset is finisned and in the hands of the community, I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity to revisit some of your ideas.

The intention of the toolset was never intended to be anything but as close to Thief style play as we could make it...you simply came in with your own agenda, and that my friend makes life miserable for everyone...including yourself.

#34 Macsen

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 10:46 AM

I look forward to oDDity's campaign , which should include, so far, a) having to operate each limb of the thief independently, b ) sticky liquid arrows that go squelch, c) naked pagans, d) female sorcerors who look like bride of frankenstein rejects, e) a thief called 'Farell', f) 'xombies' made of shit that fire heat seeking skulls, g) a rule that makes it impossible to blackjack more than 3 guards, h) a new loot system where you have to spend half an hour 'appraising' everything, i.e. Sim Museum Curator, i) no broadheads in the game.

It should be interesting, at least.

#35 Aceyalone

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 12:44 PM

I think I said exactly that. <_<
Maybe that's YOUR goal, but certainly not mine. I work on this project because I liked Thief, and the project interests me and for various other reasons.


Well OK, no offence! Didn't know the initial reasons you starded the mod, just hazard a guess! Whats all the fuss about??


----> Mascen I think the best that oDDity could do is to create naked sorveresses! Whoohooo :wub: :blush: :wub: :blush:

Edited by Aceyalone, 17 March 2007 - 12:46 PM.


#36 oDDity

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 04:04 PM

Yeah, well the zombie idea was me trying to compromise. If we absolutely had to have zombies in the game, then at least give them sort sort of decent attack and make them a real threat, instead of just uselessly cluttering up levels, shambling around sounding like the guild of perverts making their annual dirty phone call to the convent school.

What was your big contribution to the project again?.. I always forget...oh yeah, a story that no one liked, so you left in a huff.
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#37 New Horizon

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 04:11 PM

Yeah, well the zombie idea was me trying to compromise. If we absolutely had to have zombies in the game, then at least give them sort sort of decent attack and make them a real threat, instead of just uselessly cluttering up levels, shambling around sounding like the guild of perverts making their annual dirty phone call to the convent school.


That can get equally boring though. If everything in the game is just attack, attack, attack...then what makes them any different? You might as well just throw a guard in there. I know you don't like woo, so I can appreciate where you're coming from though. Mainly, zombies are 'mood' ai. They can still give you a swat or two, but they're primarily just to creep folks out a bit.

#38 sparhawk

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 05:11 PM

Mainly, zombies are 'mood' ai. They can still give you a swat or two, but they're primarily just to creep folks out a bit.


That's exactly how I see them. And at least in Thief they worked REALLY well for that, and still do.
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#39 oDDity

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 06:07 PM

You mean in Thief 1 they 'worked', there weren't any in Thief 2, apart from one or two stuck in corners you never had to visit, and the game was no worse for lack of them.
They're just the oldest stupidest idea in gaming, it's actually an embarrassment putting them in a game these days, unless you're being pretentiously post-modern.
It's as embarrassing as still having a naive health meter and health pickups, unchanged since the simple days of Zelda on the NES 20 years ago
That was another one of my ideas, a completely revised health and damage system.
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#40 sparhawk

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 06:09 PM

Of course you can create good levels without them, as T2 proofed. :) But I played some FMs where undeads were also used, and there they still worked for me. Depends on how they are used though. Not all FMs made good use of them, but I remember one scene, that was really as frightening as T1. :)
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#41 Gildoran

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Posted 17 March 2007 - 07:41 PM

----> Mascen I think the best that oDDity could do is to create naked sorveresses! Whoohooo :wub: :blush: :wub: :blush:

Although the naked pagan is quite the beauty, you'll just have to trust me when I say you don't want to see the sorceress naked. :ph34r:

#42 demagogue

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 12:21 AM

Interestingly enough, Yandros just put out a new zombie set with weapons for T2. So I guess Odd's not the only one that thought they could use a little more muscle.
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#43 Macsen

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 06:40 AM

If you're going to give zombies weapons you might as well make them something else entirely. They're pretty pointless as anything but scenery, and the haunts provide the woo without being completely feeble.

What was your big contribution to the project again?.. I always forget...oh yeah, a story that no one liked, so you left in a huff.

You have a very selective memory. I left because I didn't like the story, that was chosen by the rest of the team without my control. Thank god it seems to have been dumped now.

Also, I didn't have enough faith that anyone would be around in five years to actually construct the campaign to spend years of my life working on the writing, and that anyone would every want to play it when it was released.

#44 Aceyalone

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 09:25 AM

Although the naked pagan is quite the beauty, you'll just have to trust me when I say you don't want to see the sorceress naked. :ph34r:



Naked women are ALWAYS welcome.... :wub: :blush: :wub: :blush:

#45 demagogue

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 10:40 AM

If you're going to give zombies weapons you might as well make them something else entirely.


Well, I guess it depends on whether we're talking about crypt zombies or pirate zombies here, doesn't it?
(not sure that anyone can say that sentence entirely seriously...)

ANYWAY, sort of a silly debate. I don't have a dog in the race. The traditional zombies were fine with me.

Edited by demagogue, 18 March 2007 - 01:30 PM.

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#46 SneaksieDave

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 11:05 AM

Agreed, and for me, traditional in the T1 and T2 sense, not TDS. If I want an undead which can run after me, ghosts and haunts handle that just fine. Lumbering zombies work just fine for me as an undead "foe-lite", another variation in AI. They're there to, as people have said, create a mood and freak you out/make you uncomfortable and tense and provide obstacles, but not necessarily get you into a fight or flight situation. When the latter is needed, other AI can handle that.

#47 Macsen

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 06:39 PM

I think the problem the Dark Mod has is that they really have to be selective when choosing what AI to make. They can't go 'yeah let's have a zombie, and a skull throwing ghost, and a demon' because they don't have time to make them all. So if you really want a zombie, fine, but that would probably be your lot undead-wise (unless there are any modellers out there who want to lend a halping hand with the AI).

#48 demagogue

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 07:40 PM

Well, then that sounds like an easy debate. If I had to pick just one undead, would I be alone in picking a haunt every day of the week and twice on Sunday? Those guys are just too loved.
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#49 Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 07:50 PM

A haunt? Let's have some imagination here!

#50 jdude

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 09:48 PM

Well, then that sounds like an easy debate. If I had to pick just one undead, would I be alone in picking a haunt every day of the week and twice on Sunday? Those guys are just too loved.


Were those the guys that spoke backwards with a high pitched voice? If so I'm all for them! :D




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