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#26 oDDity

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 08:03 AM

Penumbra went with a "screen pulses with red heartbeat faster and faster the more wounded you are," and the end result was that it was really annoying. In the demo you take a fall as part of th story, and spend the next 20-30 minutes with a heartbeat sound and a red pulsing across the screen. That's not really an improvement over a little unobtrusive bar somewhere that pops up when you're wounded, IMO.

What's that example meant to prove?

Having no health system at all is an improvement over 'having a little health bar pop up when you're 'wounded''
What the hell does 'wounded' mean in this case anyway?

We've had this discussion before, 9 times out of 10, if you're hit anywhere with an arrow, it's mission over, you're never going to carry on, and if it's only a scratch then it's not worth mentioning anyway.
This idea of minor wounds gradually adding up to 100, and when you get the final small scratch which takes you from 99 to 100 damage, it means you're dead, makes me laugh.
Either have a body awareness system for the player avatar where you can tell exactly where on your body you were hit and what kind of wound it is, or just have the player killed in one hit. It's not as if he's wearing any armour anyway.
This idea of generic hits and generic damage and generic instant recovery is an irritating and pointless nonsense, and I don't know how you can have anything but contempt for it.
Once you have this complete body awareness system, then you can start to implement some adverse affects depending on the position and severity of damage, and introduce some ways of repairing specific types of damage in a more realistic manner.
I know, I know 'but people will just keep saving and reload if they have to suffer any adverse effects from damage, blah blah etc'
This is yet another reason why it's necessary to have at least limited saves or auto save points, or better still, no saves at all.
Any decent health system you can think of, which has actual consequences for being a stupid and useless enough player to get damaged, requires a limited save system of some kind, since, in a recent study, approx 99% of gamers were found to be worthless cheating scum who'd sooner fool themselves into thinking that they're great than face any consequences of their inadequate skills.
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#27 bob_arctor

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 11:32 AM

So what you're saying is have upon being hit or taking damage from a fall a probability from 0 to 1 (0 = glancing, or a fall of 2 metres) to 1 (hit by a fire arrow, fell 100 metres) and then either living or dying, a binary system?

#28 AtariThief

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 11:33 AM

Help help I've fallen and I can't get up! :rolleyes:

#29 oDDity

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 12:55 PM

When you fall in real life, you either damge something, in which case you're fucked, or you're lucky and don't.
If you are trained in how to fall and land, then some skill is involved and you can safely fall from greater heights, but when it comes to really high falls, then it's more luck than anything else.
Since it's luck in real life, I see nothing wrong with making it luck in-game.
It's just a matter of choosing the cut-off height, below which you can always safely fall, since you are trained in the art, and above which you have a certain chance of damaging something that will end your mission, and the chance obviously increases with the height.
For attack damage, there are no probabilities involved, it all comes down to realistic combat - where on your avatar you are hit with an arrow is what damage you take. IF the arrow just glances you then you are safe, if it hits you in the back, then since you are wearing no armour, you're finished. No fucking around with generic damage meters.
Melee damage would be the trickiest to implement using real physics and detailed locational damage, but it could be done.
Certainly things like mines and fire arrows finish you in one hit.
As for spiders, well they're just plain stupid anyway, there's no way you could take anything other than poison damage from a spider, and that can realistically be handled with a limited amount of antitdote included as one of the items you can purchase.
Crushing damage is the same as melee damage - either you break a bone from it and are fucked, or you don't, no half measures and generic damage adding up to 100..
As for all other damage which isn't fatal or disabling - attacks to your arms, bites from creatures, etc, a bleeding system can be implemented, by which you bleed until you pass out, the screen gradually growing darker or blurry, unless you use a medical kit, comprising a tourniquet, bandages and a needle and suture.
This doesn't put your or blood levels back up to it's normal amount of course, it just stops you from losing any more, so if you keep getting minor wounds, you'll have bled so much that you'll no longer even have the time to use your med kit.
This part is a bit like the old health system in one way, but there are major differences - it's only for minor wounds, there is no repairing of your wounds, only stopping of the ongoing damage, there is no generic 'health' involved, it is based on your body's actual capacity to lose blood.
I don't think there's any point in introducing the real effects you would suffer from having lost a lot of blood though, since this would simply be an irritation, and having blood banks wouldn't be realistic:)
A similar system could be used for burns of course.
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#30 AtariThief

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 01:49 PM

Look video geams are NOT realistic and probably never will be. If I want real life I'll have no use for a game. "Games are a fun escape from life so people can gather enough happiness and contentment to face this cruel world once more." ... Me

#31 bob_arctor

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 02:18 PM

oDDity if you have a system that complex with melee I doubt it would end up functionally different to a random chance, as with the confines of non-body awareness 2D FPS view you won't know what got hit or how.

Random chance makes more sense from a work point of view, and most players couldn't tell the difference. Which is why STALKER's A-life isn't great, if it was randomly done in a simple way I couldn't tell. It might be in fact.

And maybe other minor blows could give a temporary effect (COD2) then you recover, to simulate the initial sharp pain of bruising or soft tissue damage, which fades. (ignoring the dull ache after)

Bleeding... meh. If you are bleeding bad enough to cause shock how much are you going to be able to do anyway? Survival isn't guarenteed.

No sterilisation, tourniquets often lead to necrosis and amputation as most are done badly, no anaesthetic so stitching is going to be hard...
You need morphine antiseptic sterilisation and blood transfusions for guarenteed survival.

Not worth it. You'd fail the mission anyway through incapacitation or being slow or stationary for ages, or just die later from infection, better to avoid that side altogether.

KISS. Don't bother simulating everything in massive detail for negligible effect on the player.

With your logic it'd be better to model each footstep and clip each foot in FPS games...

#32 Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 06:48 PM

Atari: when games become such an escape it's an addiction I think.
bob: "as with the confines of non-body awareness 2D FPS view you won't know what got hit or how." When I read his post I immediately imagined the FPS view going down to the ground, then rising above the body and seeing the arrow sticking oot

Edited by Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat, 04 April 2007 - 06:49 PM.


#33 Ishtvan

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 10:04 PM

For attack damage, there are no probabilities involved, it all comes down to realistic combat - where on your avatar you are hit with an arrow is what damage you take. IF the arrow just glances you then you are safe, if it hits you in the back, then since you are wearing no armour, you're finished. No fucking around with generic damage meters.

That's pretty much the way it's set up right now, with the way damage zones are and the damage settings on the arrow. If you take one in the head, you're done. I think you can maybe take two in the body (your system would probably be 50% instant mortality instead). The only thing missing is factoring in the incidence angle of the arrow, so grazing blows do less damage, but that should be possible with the framework we already have.

Hits to extremities do less damage, although they do take away some health in our "inferior" health-accounting system. It does kind've make sense that you would not just be fine after many hits to the extremities. If you lost one finger, you'd be okay, but as more and more of your fingers & toes are hacked off, you're losing more and more blood and probably more and more likely to go into shock (which is mission-over just as good as death).

#34 Domarius

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 10:11 PM

Game developers all all lazy cunts to the last man, that's why they keep pumping out the same repetitive titles in the same few genres. The thought of doing anything new or adding any extra work gives them nightmares,

Ahem, as a game developer, I'd like to inform you that your passage of text there would be correct if you replaced "Game developers" with "Publishers" - the contract won't go ahead if the publisher 'aint happy, and it's they who are interested in the bottom line and following standard safe "money making" themes. If they don't like your project, you don't get paid, and don't eat. Welcome to the real world.

#35 sparhawk

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 02:15 AM

What Oddiy always seem to forget it is, that even if we would model a very realistic combat or damage system, that you still lack one big part, namely your body. As long as computergames are controlled via keyboard and mouse, and no real feedback on whats happen, it will always stay a crutch. It's very different if you can use your whole body, with arms, feets and heads independently, while doing the same with only your fingers and no ffedback on the various parts supposedly involved.
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#36 Subjective Effect

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 02:53 AM

Well I agree with Oddity for the most part. If you get hit by an arrow properly anywhere you are dead without immediate medical attention.
However, in a world with magic one can always have healing potions, balms and charms. I think a realistic damage model in TDM should allow for a limb to be taken out by arrow or sword, but healable with magic.

The possibility of bleeding to death doesn't really make sense from a gameplay because realistically speaking any injury that you will bleed to death from will be a serious one and you really wouldn't patch yourself up mid-mission, you'd get OUT and seek help. There are very few injuries that you will bleed to death from that are not that serious as to quickly incapacitate you.
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#37 oDDity

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:08 AM

oDDity if you have a system that complex with melee I doubt it would end up functionally different to a random chance, as with the confines of non-body awareness 2D FPS view you won't know what got hit or how.Random chance makes more sense from a work point of view, and most players couldn't tell the difference. Which is why STALKER's A-life isn't great, if it was randomly done in a simple way I couldn't tell. It might be in fact.


It's all about giving the player information about what's happening to him, not just saying 'you've taken some generic 'damage' to you 'hit points', please drink this magic potion to get them back up to '100'.
There would be a hot key you can use to call up, whether a graphical representation, or just text, giving you stats on the injury.
I'm in favour of the mission not auto-ending, unless you've been killed outright. If you've broken your leg, had an arrow in you leg or body etc, then you are left to stay there helpless on the ground and can't move, and you have to end the mission yourself. This way, the guard/guards who killed you will have time to walk up and gloat over having got you. Suitable AI barks could be recorded for this eventuality.


Bleeding... meh. If you are bleeding bad enough to cause shock how much are you going to be able to do anyway? Survival isn't guarenteed.

A lot more than you could do with an arrow sticking through you fucking leg or in your kidneys, which is the system you want to keep. A basic version of shock will be done with a blurring/darkening of the screen until you use medical aid.
This isn't about cloning very single aspect of reality down to the last atom, but just taking the health system away from a totally abstract generic one, and making it more realistic. The level of realism is not set in stone.

No sterilisation, tourniquets often lead to necrosis and amputation as most are done badly, no anaesthetic so stitching is going to be hard...
You need morphine antiseptic sterilisation and blood transfusions for guarenteed survival.

Not worth it. You'd fail the mission anyway through incapacitation or being slow or stationary for ages, or just die later from infection, better to avoid that side altogether.


We dont' give a fuck what happens to the player after the mission is over, so stop talking nonsense about infection setting in.
Stitching up is not that hard, I once had 9 stitches with no anaesthetic, a needle prick is not very painful. It is quite possible to stitch yourself, and people have done it.
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#38 oDDity

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:24 AM

Well I agree with Oddity for the most part. If you get hit by an arrow properly anywhere you are dead without immediate medical attention.
However, in a world with magic one can always have healing potions, balms and charms. I think a realistic damage model in TDM should allow for a limb to be taken out by arrow or sword, but healable with magic.


No, once you cross that river, then why not just have a 'magic' potion which creates a 'shield' around the player that keeps him totally safe, or keeps arrows away, or etc...
The problem with 'magic' is that it's boundless. If you can easily do one totally inexplicable thing like instantly heal a broken leg with magic, there's no reason why you can't just do anything with it.
That's exactly he sort of arbitrary, abstract system I'm try to get away from.

The possibility of bleeding to death doesn't really make sense from a gameplay because realistically speaking any injury that you will bleed to death from will be a serious one and you really wouldn't patch yourself up mid-mission, you'd get OUT and seek help. There are very few injuries that you will bleed to death from that are not that serious as to quickly incapacitate you.

Yes, but as I said, you can implement a realistic system without actually implementing every single detail of reality. It's ok to leave out certain aspects of reality, or slightly exaggerate or diminish them if it's appropriate for the gameplay.
THis is still better than a totally abstract and generic system with no connection to reality at all.
Bickering over what is 100% realistic or not has no purpose here, since that's t the point of the exercise.
Still, as a medical man, if you can think of a better system, which is more realistic, but is also workable from a gameplay perspective, then don't be shy.
All of what I said in that post was just off the top of my head, which shows how easy it is to think of alternate health systems.
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#39 oDDity

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:50 AM

Ahem, as a game developer, I'd like to inform you that your passage of text there would be correct if you replaced "Game developers" with "Publishers" - the contract won't go ahead if the publisher 'aint happy, and it's they who are interested in the bottom line and following standard safe "money making" themes. If they don't like your project, you don't get paid, and don't eat. Welcome to the real world.


Ok, so you've just admitted that you're happy to spend the rest of your life making the same generic crap just so you get a wage packet at the end of every week.
Thanks for confirming it. That's exactly why I was insulting game developers.
Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.
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#40 oDDity

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 04:02 AM

That's pretty much the way it's set up right now, with the way damage zones are and the damage settings on the arrow. If you take one in the head, you're done. I think you can maybe take two in the body (your system would probably be 50% instant mortality instead). The only thing missing is factoring in the incidence angle of the arrow, so grazing blows do less damage, but that should be possible with the framework we already have.

Hits to extremities do less damage, although they do take away some health in our "inferior" health-accounting system. It does kind've make sense that you would not just be fine after many hits to the extremities. If you lost one finger, you'd be okay, but as more and more of your fingers & toes are hacked off, you're losing more and more blood and probably more and more likely to go into shock (which is mission-over just as good as death).


It's nice to hear that the system could actually e implemented in full with little work.
However, any shot to the body or leg with an arrow should be final, I don't see the reasoning behind making only a head shot fatal. The body or leg shot would not be fatal, but it would be incapacitating, which is essentially the same thing as far as the game goes.
The thing to remember is that the player is wearing no armour, and broadheads are designed to do a lot of damage to flesh.
The bottom lin is that no health meter is required, you're either hit and incapacitated, or you take a minior wound, in hich case you bleed, and it's that which determines your survival.
It could become quite complex of course, you could take into consideration the position of bones and major veins and arteries, and factor those into the damage model for the player avatar
I would love to be able call up a detailed account of my injury with a hotkey, rather than just have some red line on the HUD go down by 25%.
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#41 Subjective Effect

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 05:11 AM

The problem with 'magic' is that it's boundless. If you can easily do one totally inexplicable thing like instantly heal a broken leg with magic, there's no reason why you can't just do anything with it.
That's exactly he sort of arbitrary, abstract system I'm try to get away from.

Oh, I know what you mean. I don't want to go too far with magic but for minor injuries, for example, a magic balm that accelerates the healing process would be acceptable to me. An arrow in the lung is another thing altogether, as is a "shield".

Still, as a medical man, if you can think of a better system, which is more realistic, but is also workable from a gameplay perspective, then don't be shy.

Location damage with realistically modeled damage effects. Arrow to the leg or arm = limited/no use of that limb dependent on the actual part hit. Head=dead. Chest=dead if heart/major blood vessels, the slow death of respiratory failure if hit in the lung. Abdomen=slow exsanguination.

You could survive a lung/abdomen hit if you manage to escape quickly enough to get help. I'm all for stitching of minor injuries and setting your own bones +/- balms for accelerated healing/analgesia and potions for exhaustion.

This is only loosely based on reality, but I'd extend the same model to the AI.
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#42 bob_arctor

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 05:34 AM

My point with the melee combat is that in FPS it's hard to know how bad a hit was, which is what spar said.

As for shock: Urrm, if you are in shock so much that your vision is fading you better lie down on the floor with your legs in the air, and wait for an ambulance so you can go to hospital, might wanna get a blood transfusion...

But in TDM if you are in shock you're screwed. Shock means you can't think right as well, you get confused and dopey.

So Oddity in your system if you bled enough to get shock symptoms you'd probably just stop, or fall over, and then a guard would find you if you didn't just end the mission there.
That'd be quite immersive though. Just on the ground, waiting for a guard to come and kick you to death. That'd teach you for getting hurt!

#43 Subjective Effect

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 05:46 AM

I do like the idea of collapsing and having to just lie or crawl slowly as the enemy closes in on you.
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#44 Springheel

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 09:31 AM

If you want a binary "you're fine/you're dead" system, just add a "Fail on taking damage" objective to the mission. Presto.
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#45 SneaksieDave

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 09:43 AM

:laugh:

#46 oDDity

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 10:31 AM

You're right, that would work if that's what someone wanted, but then, no one here wants a 'you're fine/you're dead' system, so it was a pointless suggestion to make..
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#47 Vadrosaul

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 10:34 AM

All of Oddity's suggestions sound very similar to the health system of Call of Cthulhu: DCotE, where bleeding to death was a possibility, and it was shown via a decrease in the color on the screen, heavier breathing and an increased hear-rate
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#48 oDDity

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 10:58 AM

I just read about it on gamespot, an it seems Call of Cthulhu has no hud at all. Sounds interesting, and it's nice to know that there are at least a few developers who are at least willing to try something new. I think I'll give it a try, I'm not sure how I missed this, it compares it to thief and system shock as well.
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#49 sparhawk

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 11:06 AM

Call of Cthuluhu is a rather nice game with good atmosphere.
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#50 Springheel

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 11:20 AM

no one here wants a 'you're fine/you're dead' system, so it was a pointless suggestion to make..


I see. Don't know where I could have gotten that idea....

If you're hit anywhere with an arrow, it's mission over, you're never going to carry on, and if it's only a scratch then it's not worth mentioning anyway.

When you fall in real life, you either damge something, in which case you're fucked, or you're lucky and don't.

IF the arrow just glances you then you are safe, if it hits you in the back, then since you are wearing no armour, you're finished.

Crushing damage is the same as melee damage - either you break a bone from it and are fucked, or you don't..



You're right about the pointless bit though.
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