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#51 Tels

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 05:40 AM

Aye. In the unlikely event that someone came around here waving a cease and desist notice, I imagine all we'd need to do is politely explain that we're not violating their copyright, and continue on our merry way without fear of any further corporate smackdown. After all, we're not doing anything wrong or illegal.


But regardless, our licensing status is at the moment quite unclear. I opened up a thread in the internal forums:

http://forums.thedar...?showtopic=6752

And yes, I think the video should probably put up on thedarkmod.com - monthly updates would suit us well :)
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

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#52 Crispy

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 06:20 AM

Well, the licence we apply to TDM is a completely separate issue from the issue of us infringing on other people's copyright (which, as I stated, has not taken place). But you're right, it's important. I replied to the thread.
My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.

#53 Springheel

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 11:21 AM

Why hasn't this video been mentioned on the main Dark Mod site? Usually that's where I check for updates and its been over a month since the last update there.


I've been pretty busy the last week and haven't had time to update yet.
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#54 STiFU

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 06:16 AM

With that advanced and professional content, you could even write to ID about your project. I could very well imagine your mod becoming a low-cost steamdownload, since ID brought their games to that platform. I know steam sucks etc. but many modteams made their first step to professional gamedevelopment - as far as "getting payed for it" is concerned - via steam. And I sure would (like to) pay money for this great mod. :) I say, give it a shot. Maybe you even get bigger support of ID software, but maybe I am also dreaming way too far ahead here... ;)

I LOVE TDM!!! Rock on... :D

Edited by STiFU, 02 November 2007 - 06:18 AM.


#55 sparhawk

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 06:52 AM

Support from Id, would definitely be appreciated. Getting payed for it would cause a lot of problems though. ;)
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#56 New Horizon

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 07:13 AM

With that advanced and professional content, you could even write to ID about your project. I could very well imagine your mod becoming a low-cost steamdownload, since ID brought their games to that platform. I know steam sucks etc. but many modteams made their first step to professional gamedevelopment - as far as "getting payed for it" is concerned - via steam. And I sure would (like to) pay money for this great mod. :) I say, give it a shot. Maybe you even get bigger support of ID software, but maybe I am also dreaming way too far ahead here... ;)

Thanks for the enthusiasm, but we would never be able to sell the mod. It would be illegal and land us all in hot water. We have been fortunate to get this far without any trouble.

#57 sparhawk

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 07:24 AM

Why would it be illegal? As soon as Doom 3 is GPLed it would be perfectly legal. Havn't looked for that in the current license, so it might or might not.

The bigger problem I see would be to determine the sharing key. ;)
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#58 Dram

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:19 AM

No, definitely should stay free. Personally I'm not THAT desperate for a bit of cash and I do this because I love it :)

#59 New Horizon

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:33 AM

Why would it be illegal?


Due to the similarity to Thief? ;)

#60 Dram

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:41 AM

Due to the similarity to Thief? ;)


I doubt they could pin anything on us, but it's more about the moral of it all. This is meant to be for the community, so expecting them to pay when they've given us so many fms is quite immoral.

#61 STiFU

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:55 AM

I think there is no need for Doom 3 to be GPLed first. Look at "The Ship", "Counter Strike" or "Team Fortress". Valve decided that those mods were good enough to be payed for and why shouldn't ID software acknowledge that your mod is on a that high standard as well. Anyway, I understand and support your argumentation. Very generous!! =)

Edited by STiFU, 02 November 2007 - 09:56 AM.


#62 New Horizon

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 10:42 AM

I think there is no need for Doom 3 to be GPLed first. Look at "The Ship", "Counter Strike" or "Team Fortress". Valve decided that those mods were good enough to be payed for and why shouldn't ID software acknowledge that your mod is on a that high standard as well. Anyway, I understand and support your argumentation. Very generous!! =)


Id is a competitor to Eidos though, and doesn't own the Thief franchise. :) I feel we've been granted a bit of grace by Eidos thus far in our development, and they must certainly know about us. Development houses like 3D Realms have folks following our progress, so I'm sure we're under someones watchful eye out there. We've been very vocal about respecting the copyrights of Eidos and have done our absolute best to ensure we get things as close to Thief as possible...without going too far. It's a very fine line. An idea like this is flattering, but could ultimately prove fatal, as the mere suggestion could become rumor in the hands of the ever expansive internet.

#63 Springheel

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 11:06 AM

Let's not create the impression that the only reason we're "okay" is because we aren't charging any money for the mod. We're respecting all copywrite laws related to the issue. We are not using and sounds, textures or other assets from Thief games. We are not using any of Eidos' intellectual property. We are also not copying the most 'evocative' Thief icons, such as crystal arrows (used in the majority of advertising art for the game).

Sure, there are similarities--they're both stealth games set in a medievalish-steampunk setting, so how could there not be? Comapre any two World War 2 FPS games and I'm sure they would look pretty similar as well.

That being said, no I don't think we should charge money for the mod--that goes against the whole spirit of a toolkit. I consider my reward to be the adoration of the masses and the ability to play through cool missions made by mappers (though if you want to send me $20 I'm sure we can arrange something). ;)
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#64 sparhawk

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 11:35 AM

Due to the similarity to Thief? ;)


You mean the shooter Vietnam is less near to Doom I? Get real. Just because we use a similar setting, doesn't mean that everybody can sue. Either it's legal or it's not! And if it's legal nobody can do anything about it. Constantly claiming that it may not be so doesn't help anybody.
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#65 New Horizon

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 11:40 AM

I think you're misunderstanding my point Spar. :) At any rate, it's a moot point since it's a free toolset.

#66 sparhawk

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 11:41 AM

Id is a competitor to Eidos though, and doesn't own the Thief franchise. :) I feel we've been granted a bit of grace by Eidos thus far in our development, and they must certainly know about us.


Yes, they probably know about us. And if they woul dhave problems with us, they would have told us by now, I would imagine. I really don't understand this fear, because we are NOT doing any illegal. Really! The media creates so much hype that people constantly turn their head, because they try to tell you that everything is illegal that you haven't paid Big Corporation for. :angry:
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#67 Subjective Effect

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:01 PM

Teams have been ordered to stop later in development than this though haven't they? Wasn't the Halo RTS close to release when MS made them stop?

Anyway, I don't think TDM can be breaking any copyright because the setting is in fact too dissimilar and it's also a toolset, not a game as such.
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#68 sparhawk

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:10 PM

Teams have been ordered to stop later in development than this though haven't they? Wasn't the Halo RTS close to release when MS made them stop?

And? We have to deal with it, if it happens. But even if we get such a note, this doesn't neccessarily mean that it is indeed a copyright violation. What people often forget is, that you can sue whatever you want. The fact of suing doesn't make it right. The judges will tell if something is according to law, not some lawyers who are paid and write in the interest of their enployer.
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#69 Springheel

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:17 PM

I certainly don't want to encourage a showdown, however, since being legally right and being able to afford to prove it in court are two different things. I imagine international lawyers are pretty pricey. :)
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Video Series:   Springheel's Modules   *   Speedbuild Challenge   *   New Mappers Workshop  *   Building Traps

#70 Mr Retarded

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 03:01 PM

Perhaps when the mod is out you could have a button on the page so people can donate some moolah for all your hard work via PayPal if they so choose.

#71 Tels

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 05:04 PM

I certainly don't want to encourage a showdown, however, since being legally right and being able to afford to prove it in court are two different things. I imagine international lawyers are pretty pricey. :)


Yeah, but it also works in our favour. We just push the download to a different continent and tell them to sue the next person instead. And since our work is so good, some big gaming house will buy us anyway :P

(That last sentence was an Official Tels' Joke™)
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#72 Crispy

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 09:19 PM

Let's not create the impression that the only reason we're "okay" is because we aren't charging any money for the mod. We're respecting all copywrite laws related to the issue.

Hear hear. We're perfectly in the clear, legally. Please don't muddy the legal waters by suggesting that it's only OK because the mod is free.

Cost has no bearing on a copyright dispute, despite popular belief. Some people will give free projects a bit of leeway in terms of "do we sue them", but not everyone; and the distinction is not recognised by law.

(Pet peeve: Copyright, not "copywrite". It's got nothing to do with writing copy, and everything to do with who has the right to copy the work.)
My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.

#73 Springheel

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 07:27 AM

Doh. I always make that mistake when I type quickly. :blush:
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#74 OrbWeaver

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 09:31 AM

Yeah, but it also works in our favour. We just push the download to a different continent and tell them to sue the next person instead. And since our work is so good, some big gaming house will buy us anyway :P
(That last sentence was an Official Tels' Joke™)


Apart from the part about being bought out, it's actually a very good point. Contrary to popular belief, getting a letter from a corporation is not the end of the world and does not mean that the mod has been "shut down", all it means is that some corporation (or possibly an individual within that corporation) didn't like what you were doing and thought they would try it on by using intimidation.

Once you call their bluff, indicate that you are not in fact infringing their IP and invite them to stick their intimidation where the sun don't shine, they are then in the position of having to decide whether to embark on the expensive, time-consuming and potentially dangerous (in terms of reputation and setting unwanted precedents) course of taking actual legal action, which is made even more difficult by the fact that an international project can switch host countries at the drop of a hat.

#75 Vadrosaul

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 12:25 PM

Perhaps when the mod is out you could have a button on the page so people can donate some moolah for all your hard work via PayPal if they so choose.

I wouldn't recommend anything like that. It could cause splintering among the group unless there is someone all members trust to spread the wealth fairly.
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