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Opinions on St. Lucia Demo


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#26 BrokenArts

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 04:20 PM

First time I saw a guard relight a torch, I put out.........BASTARD! I almost got busted. :angry: Though, I wasn't surprised. ;)

#27 Selestrielle

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 05:12 PM

[...]

Oh, and: will food be edible one day? The stuff looks delicous in game, I'd like to taste it. Or is it already there and I missed the right button?


Yeah! just like in Thief 1 and Thief 2 ^^ I just laughed so much when the deer leg made an apple crunching sound XD
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#28 woah

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 07:14 PM

Sounds great!

Is there a video walkthrough/showcase of the demo, or at least parts of it? I don't have windows, and I don't really have the spare time (or money) to get Doom 3 working on linux at the moment.

#29 HappyCheeze

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 07:50 PM

@Coders,

the record command is disabled in TDM. I was wondering if its possible to be reenabled to showcase maps or give walkthroughs (eg. get all the loot, find that hidden key etc.)
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#30 Komag

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 08:27 PM

Best to record video with FRAPS or other program (I think FRAPS is the best one - the free version allows 30 second clips, full version which I have is best with no limits and pretty cheap)
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#31 plasticman

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 09:37 PM

. . . demo recording inside the engine still would be nicer. Smaller, no codec-issues.

Yeah! just like in Thief 1 and Thief 2 ^^ I just laughed so much when the deer leg made an apple crunching sound XD


People may laugh at me, but it's an important feature. I think Looking Glass introduced it back in Ultima Underworld. In Thief food worked as an indicator for me. When I played for hours and got hungry I used to look for something to eat in my inventory.
That's when you know you have been playing to long. :D

And now for something completely. . .
Object manipulation:
I didn't mean to suggest it should be removed and replaced by some less sophisticated system like in Thief/Deus Ex etc.

I am only anxoius about mappers overdoing it and turn their missions in some kind of 3d-Tetris with stealth elements. Since someone pointed me to the shift key it has become easier as well.

Replaying it a new aspect bugs me: It seems like mappers can decide whether a movable can be frobbed or not. The pallet blocking the entrance to the sewers can be frobbed, the one blocking the window to the beggar's housing can only be manipulated indirectly.

The same for crates, most are not even movable (found the hidden frobable one and was very happy about it's swimming capability, though it needs a little tweaking).

In the end you end up with incoherencies in your map: the same visual representation requires different user interaction which can only be determined by getting close to it and see if it highlights. It's an easy task, but it breaks immersion.
Whenever you examine if a crate is frobable, movable or static you are forced to think in terms of "Did the mapper want me to use this entity as a piece of the puzzle or is it just about eye-candy?"

My suggestion would be to stream-line this and not leave the choice to mappers by default, so people can get used to the way things behave in the game world.

Hope I didn't sound negative. Btw, forget anything i said about shouldering with the use key being uncomfortable and slow. Since I rebound use to "f" I don't even notice it anymore.


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#32 Vadrosaul

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 09:51 PM

Like everyone else I cannot do anything but heap praise upon the mod and the people behind its creative forces. It truly is starting to look the part of what it has been advertised to be, and St. Lucia is like a drip of hydro to a dehydrated Thief fan.

Looking at what’s been said, I would be merely repeating a lot of criticism that has already been spoken. Yet here are things I had the most trouble with, or recommend for improvements if not already considered:

- The inventory needs a fade timer for certain inventory items that do not need to stay on screen on the bottom-right corner, such as the loot totals after frobbing some loot, readables, or collected quest items that have no practical use after stealing them

- I would like a permanently visible option for the health bar, or a mappable button to press to see the bar for a couple seconds

- A fair bit of audio cues were missing, such as one for losing health when falling (like an ‘Oomph!’), or a slightly heavier footfall when jumping on point.

- I do like the inventory item indicator for carrying a body, and it is adequate to settle with. But is it possible to see the hand holding the body on the right hand side of the screen like in TDP?

Bugs:

- The menu interface disappears after awhile when pressing Esc.
- Gamma always resets back to 1.6
- Objectives text is sometimes left justified on the objectives screen, causing the text to veer off the background papyrus image.
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#33 LeatherMan

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 10:09 PM

- Gamma always resets back to 1.6


This happens to me as well, but I tested and verified it was a Doom 3 problem and not a TDM problem. You wouldn't happen to be running Linux, would you?

#34 Vadrosaul

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 10:10 PM

This happens to me as well, but I tested and verified it was a Doom 3 problem and not a TDM problem. You wouldn't happen to be running Linux, would you?

Windows XP SP3
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#35 LeatherMan

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 10:14 PM

Windows XP SP3


Well now we know it isn't isolated to Linux, I'm running Ubuntu 64.

What graphics card and drivers are you using? We have already verified some issues with GeForce 6x00 cards.

#36 demagogue

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 10:43 PM

Replaying it a new aspect bugs me: It seems like mappers can decide whether a movable can be frobbed or not.
My suggestion would be to stream-line this and not leave the choice to mappers by default, so people can get used to the way things behave in the game world.


IMO, what you are talking about isn't a bug to be "corrected" but a power that builders can potentially abuse in ways like you talk about, in the same way they can abuse other freedoms, even brushes. I think it's right that builders have the freedom to make whatever object they want frobbable; it's a general purpose function, and it should stay that way.

But I also think a good designer would do well to keep in mind basic, time honored principles of mimesis and consistency, which would argue in favor of having some consistency with what's frobabble and what's not, and avoid old adventure game traps like "guess the object" and red-herring syndrome, which inconsistent frobability might slip into. But like I said, I think that's an issue of design for builders to worry about, not a problem of functionality worth limiting the freedom of frobability.

(I answered this just so I could say the word "frobability" :) )
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#37 Vadrosaul

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 11:35 PM

Well now we know it isn't isolated to Linux, I'm running Ubuntu 64.

What graphics card and drivers are you using? We have already verified some issues with GeForce 6x00 cards.

eVGA GeForce 8800 GTS, using driver version#178.24
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#38 Fidcal

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:03 AM

@plasticman: I hear what you say about standards so players always know what to expect but my own view is this one 'rule' that players can learn easily: If an item in the world highlights then you can activate it, eg, to open it like a door, or pick it up, whatever. That's it. If I find a pile of crates and they highlight I can pick them up. It does not mean necessarily that they are supposed to be used to solve a problem. Sometimes they can and sometimes not; eg, a frobbable crate near an open ground floor window is begging to be used. This is common in Thief FMs; find crates in a cupboard or under the stairs; sometimes they highlight; sometimes not. If a door does not highlight then it is not frobbable to open. It is either architectural decoration else maybe opened by a lever or switch elsewhere.

If small crates always highlighted then in mappers would be unable to use them as decoration in places where they don't want the player to climb up.

As a general rule I like small items like small crates to be frobbable while bigger ones like barrels are pushable but I'm so used to seeing all types in Thief I don't have any expectations.

In any event; you cannot stop mappers doing it any which way they like because they can change the property or even type definitions from the default or create new ones fairly easily exclusively for their map just as they could in Thief.

#39 Land-Vogt

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:48 AM

If small crates always highlighted then in mappers would be unable to use them as decoration in places where they don't want the player to climb up.


In my opinion the environment in a game should not serve as decoration. The more interaction with the world there is, the more you feel like beeing a part of this world. It adds to the authenticity and athmosphere. And it's fun  :laugh: .

If only a few things highlighted the game would fell like an early 90's adventure game. But it's just my opinion :blush: .

#40 SneaksieDave

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:23 AM

It's as yet unrealistic, and there are trade-offs in design and development. A map where everything is moveable/destructable would be great, but it would be a monumental task and a slide show if it worked at all, and then you'd hear the non-stop chorus of bitching from your downloaders. :wub:

#41 HappyCheeze

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:44 AM

I think of it this way.

If one crate is frobbable, its quite light.

It it isn't, than its full of heavy stuff, thus making it unfrobbable.

:rolleyes:
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#42 muncadunc

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 10:03 AM

My thoughts on the crates is that they should default to frobbable, like in TDP.

But is it possible to see the hand holding the body on the right hand side of the screen like in TDP?

And in Deus Ex, too. I'm guessing the current shouldering system is just a placeholder, though.

#43 muncadunc

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 10:46 AM

Oh yes: I just found out that you can use carryables to cast a shadow on yourself and avoid guards. You an also use them to push guards out of the way.

#44 SneaksieDave

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 11:38 AM

As to the shadow, that is a natural consequence of realtime light and shadow. A developer would have to comment on the current state of suspicion for moved/moving objects or trace to player through objects.

As for pushing AI with held junk objects, can you describe the circumstance? I just confirmed that if I attempt to put a non-team AI with a crate, he goes alert as soon as he is touched.

#45 Ishtvan

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 12:29 PM

But is it possible to see the hand holding the body on the right hand side of the screen like in TDP?

It's possible, we just didn't have the time/animation resources to add this minor aesthetic touch before this release. If you're interested in helping out in these areas, please let us know.

#46 Land-Vogt

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:21 PM

It's as yet unrealistic, and there are trade-offs in design and development. A map where everything is moveable/destructable would be great, but it would be a monumental task and a slide show if it worked at all, and then you'd hear the non-stop chorus of bitching from your downloaders. :wub:


But many of the crates and barrels are already moveable. When i take a broom and  push it against a barrel the barrel will move or even tilt over. It would just be nice if i could pull and push it without taking a broom, beating it with my blackjack or running against it.  :blush:

#47 pavlovscat

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:01 PM

Oh, and: will food be edible one day? The stuff looks delicous in game, I'd like to taste it. Or is it already there and I missed the right button?
:rolleyes:

I also missed being able to eat the pretty food. Redneck Rampage had an hilarious system for food consumption. Goo-Goo Clusters/Moon Pies/chips were food & made you fat, and the beer/whiskey/moonshine gave health and got you drunk. I'm not looking for the flatulence factor nor do I want to pee in game, but is it possible to make the player get drunk if they chugged a bottle of wine? For instance, have it affect the light gem so you can't hide as well if you're drunk or make it easily for the AI to hear you.


Hmm...just a thought.

#48 Tels

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:02 PM

I also missed being able to eat the pretty food. Redneck Rampage had an hilarious system for food consumption. Goo-Goo Clusters/Moon Pies/chips were food & made you fat, and the beer/whiskey/moonshine gave health and got you drunk. I'm not looking for the flatulence factor nor do I want to pee in game, but is it possible to make the player get drunk if they chugged a bottle of wine? For instance, have it affect the light gem so you can't hide as well if you're drunk or make it easily for the AI to hear you.
Hmm...just a thought.


You are starting to give me ideas... don't do that! :P
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#49 pavlovscat

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:10 PM

I'm just trying to be helpful... :rolleyes:

I wouldn't want y'all to get bored! :laugh:

#50 LeatherMan

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:09 PM

I also missed being able to eat the pretty food. Redneck Rampage had an hilarious system for food consumption. Goo-Goo Clusters/Moon Pies/chips were food & made you fat, and the beer/whiskey/moonshine gave health and got you drunk. I'm not looking for the flatulence factor nor do I want to pee in game, but is it possible to make the player get drunk if they chugged a bottle of wine? For instance, have it affect the light gem so you can't hide as well if you're drunk or make it easily for the AI to hear you.

Hmm...just a thought.


Deus Ex was similar. Eating various snacks obviously improved health a little (didn't make you fat), but smoking cigs made you cough and (IIRC) lose health. Wine also improved health and made you tipsy, but drinking too much wine made you drunk. It wore off quickly, though. There was some drug at one point that I think would kill you.




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