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[Springheel]

I don't think it's worth any time to fix, personally. Regular players will not be starting games from the console--that's a developer tool, and there's no need for it to run the map perfectly, IMO.

 

At the very least, it isn't something that needs to be done before release.

[Fidcal]

I'll add it to tracker low priority for the future then so we have a record. It might happen other bugs crop up and this might be fixable at the same time.

[Fidcal]

I set up a test briefing based on the wiki article and this works fine. I put in a couple lines of text. This is probably adequate for the average mapper. Some questions:

 

Is there a way to display the briefing while developing without having to put it into a pk4 and reload each time?

 

For the more adventurous and knowledgeable, do they simply produce their own guis/mainmenu_briefing.gui in their pk4? I wanted to look at how SL & Outpost guis were done to see if a template could be made. Maybe a mapper need only take a few screenshots and type in text. Even without speech that method is rather nice.

 

Can videos be imported into guis?

[greebo]

Is there a way to display the briefing while developing without having to put it into a pk4 and reload each time?

You can put the .xd file in your /xdata folder just as fine. You don't need to pack the .xd into a PK4, this is only necessary for release. Still the map needs to be run via the menu GUI, which implies that you used the FM loading process, which furthermore implies that you have a separate folder for FM development.

 

Which is probably a good idea anyway. People should create their maps in a separate fs_game folder, and use darkmod as fs_game_base. This is as close as you can get to the player's situation, and it's supported by DarkRadiant as well now.

 

For the more adventurous and knowledgeable, do they simply produce their own guis/mainmenu_briefing.gui in their pk4? I wanted to look at how SL & Outpost guis were done to see if a template could be made. Maybe a mapper need only take a few screenshots and type in text. Even without speech that method is rather nice.

A custom briefing is rather ambitious, yes, you need to know a thing or two about GUI coding, photoshopping and the use of alpha channels (and DDS creation). A template is rather complicated to create.

 

Can videos be imported into guis?

I think so, you need to create a shader referencing the .roq file, but I never tested it myself. Then just create a windowDef with that shader as background, the tricky part is probably the sound synchronisation, but if you went through the hassle of creating a video that's probably the lesser problem.

[Fidcal]

You can put the .xd file in your <fs_game>/xdata folder just as fine. You don't need to pack the .xd into a PK4, this is only necessary for release. Still the map needs to be run via the menu GUI, which implies that you used the FM loading process, which furthermore implies that you have a separate folder for FM development.

 

Which is probably a good idea anyway. People should create their maps in a separate fs_game folder, and use darkmod as fs_game_base. This is as close as you can get to the player's situation, and it's supported by DarkRadiant as well now.

Good, I'll try that. A downside is when switching between maps during development all games saves, dmap files, screenies, changes in doomconfig, etc all go in that folder. I've had a lot of stuff end up in my SL folder for instance. We need a quick uninstall. Some way to delete currentfm.txt and relaunch tdm.

 

A custom briefing is rather ambitious, yes, you need to know a thing or two about GUI coding, photoshopping and the use of alpha channels (and DDS creation). A template is rather complicated to create.

OK, I'll take your word for it but I thought if one just stole the outpost briefing and replaced the text and screenshots wouldn't that work? I'll let someone else worry about videos.

 

 

Still setting up my startmap.

 

Next is the shop. I think there was discussion that this cannot be skipped in case a player wants to drop/sell items. But that also raised the problem of a player dropping a critical item. It also means the only way to include ammo etc is in the shop as start items and the atdm:difficulty_settings route should be scrapped except for ammo that is found in-game?

 

There may be some confusion. Player tools can just be put in the map with inv_map_start set to 1 and with a difficulty setting on the entity I think. But that won't show in the shop so if the shop is compulsory it means we should not put anything in the mapper's inventory at start?

 

ammo and weapons can be included by using a atdm:difficulty_settings entity which is a hack. Or as shop start items. Or in a custom player.def I think.

 

I think we need to decide how we want to present this to mappers. One upside of the shop is that it does present to the player exactly what they are starting with. A downside is that mappers cannot get anything while developing but only after installing the finished FM. Or is that wrong? Maybe shop start items work anyway even if you don't see the shop?

 

Assuming shop start items appear in the inventory even if there is no shop then maybe this should be the only method and consider even disabling inv_map_start but I am in doubt that the atdm:difficulty_settings route for ammo/weapons can be disabled?

[greebo]

Are you sure you're not making things more complicated than they are? I must admit that I have some difficulties following your thoughts, reading through your posts - there are so many different little things you're talking about.

 

Anyway, regarding your questions:

 

To define starting ammonition, the mapper just places these in the worldspawn:

"startingItem_3_item" "weapon_broadhead"
"startingItem_3_qty" "5"

There are also spawnargs for difficulty-dependend starting equipment, if I recall correctly.

 

Next is the shop. I think there was discussion that this cannot be skipped in case a player wants to drop/sell items.

I think the shop is skipped if there is nothing for sale, I'd have to check the code. But at any rate this can be implemented. Wouldn't it still make sense for the player to see which starting equipment there is, regardless whether items are for sale or not?

 

But that also raised the problem of a player dropping a critical item.

Dropping what critical item, for instance? Important inventory items are not added by the shop, but via "inv_map_start" "1" directly in the map, no way to drop that. Important items should also be made "inv_droppable" "0" if the mapper wants to make sure.

 

There may be some confusion. Player tools can just be put in the map with inv_map_start set to 1 and with a difficulty setting on the entity I think. But that won't show in the shop so if the shop is compulsory it means we should not put anything in the mapper's inventory at start?

I don't understand the question?

 

ammo and weapons can be included by using a atdm:difficulty_settings entity which is a hack. Or as shop start items. Or in a custom player.def I think.

The tdm_player_thief.def is only there for development purposes. All these values will be set to 0 once TDM is released, so no "default" ammonition is added apart from the "startingItem" stuff.

 

I think we need to decide how we want to present this to mappers. One upside of the shop is that it does present to the player exactly what they are starting with. A downside is that mappers cannot get anything while developing but only after installing the finished FM.

During map development, mappers can either set the tdm_player_thief.def values or place a few ammo items in the map. Just remove them before the map is packaged.

 

Maybe shop start items work anyway even if you don't see the shop?

I'd need to check the code, but I think the starting items are always added, regardless whether the shop GUI is displayed or not.

 

...but I am in doubt that the atdm:difficulty_settings route for ammo/weapons can be disabled?

The difficulty settings route for ammo items is not the way to go, it was just employed by me to "inject" settings into you guys' darkmod/ repository without touching it. The difficulty settings are not meant to be used for this at all, but I don't see a reason to disable it on purpose either.

[Fidcal]

It's important that the mapper be able to bypass the shop even though he mostly will need start items (ammo/weapons.) Probably some spawnarg is needed, shop or noshop maybe.

 

I've only just realized that modified or custom objects cannot be put in the shop unless they are pre-defined which I don't want to include with this start map. I want it as easy as possible. But I do want a customisable object option. But I also want the shop as an option. So the shop will show some things the player has but not all. I tend to see the shop as showing my inventory at map start. Not good but no easy way round it I can think of.

[Springheel]

It's important that the mapper be able to bypass the shop

 

Why?

[Fidcal]

Because an empty shop looks rather foolish imo and some missions will not include any starting equipment in the shop.

[Springheel]

Even if there is nothing to purchase, the menu is still useful for showing you what items you start with (or don't start with). Even in the case where the menu is absolutely empty, that still informs the player that they won't start with any equipment at all (even the compass) which is worth knowing.

 

If greebo wants to do the work to make it possible to bypass the purchase screen, that's fine, but it seems like a trivial issue to me.

[Fidcal]

The shop does not necessarily show what the player will start with. It only shows shop items. See my post above. Where I said it shows what the player starts with that was in context of 'if we disable the other methods'. What I was asking was should we go with shop only and prevent other methods. Or if we go with both then the mapper must be able to disable the shop. Since it is clear now it is not practical or desirable to prevent other methods then I am convinced the mapper should be able to hide the shop.

[Fidcal]

Couple of problems:

 

Just copied jesp's pandoras_box from contributors into darkmod/fms and it would not show on the Start Menu if I launched via tdmlauncher. When I ran darkmod direct then I could install it. Once the new folder had been created by the install then tdmlauncher could see it.

 

Also, jesp reported the same problem I did before - that doom is not saving the doomconfig fully in the new folder. I keep getting 640 x 480 - he got all black textures. When I suggested he copy his doomconfig from darkmod into the new folder it fixed it.

 

Shall I add both the above to tracker?

[Fidcal]

All gamesaves/loads not working in jesp's map. Hitting my quicksave key shows the message but there is nothing in the menu. Same in menu I can save but it doesn't show. I think this is a path problem and they have probably gone in the wrong folder. (but then, wouldn't that work both ways for load & save?)

 

Now I've finished I see them in the right folder but they didn't show in the menus while I was playing. Launch TDM again and now they show in the save/load menu.

[Fidcal]

The shop items are getting stuck in memory somehow so they affect other maps loaded from console in the same session. This is what I see:

 

I have certain amounts of ammo set via the difficulty hack in the startmap for testing via console.

In the shop I have entered the various items but set them to zero except moss I set to 50.

 

When run first from the console I get the test amounts from the difficulty entity. Good.

When I then run through the shop I see moss 50. Good.

In game the moss 50 overrides the difficulty hack. Good. The others which are set at zero do not override the hack. This is also good.

But now when I quit the mission and return to running the map from the console I still see 50 moss in game. In fact I see 50 moss in another old test map when I run it in the same session. That map doesn't even have any shop items.

 

I also note that the difficulty remains in memory after launching via the menus - but that is probably good. It means you can keep testing quickly via the console in Hard and Expert. And if you want to get back to Easy then run via the menus once and select Easy.

[greebo]

Yes, it's possible that the shop isn't cleared between map loads. The multi-map scenario hasn't been looked at so far, so I'd consider this work in progress - you can put an item on the tracker, I think this is an easy fix.

 

Also, please keep in mind that setting the ammo via difficulty entities is a hack after all, I wouldn't invest too many time into this hack, it's a temporary workaround.

[Fidcal]

OK, I'll add to tracker.

 

The hack will have to be used for now when testing via console until there is some sort of ammo entity set up. This relates to Tels thread in Current Build I think. Unless the code can directly read the startingitems and spawn them even if the map is launched via the console.

 

[edit] wot? tracker down? or is it my bookmark corrupted?

[greebo]

Ah, seems like there is some problem with the MySQL connections - I'll ping my provider if this error remains for the next hour.

[greebo]

It's important that the mapper be able to bypass the shop even though he mostly will need start items (ammo/weapons.) Probably some spawnarg is needed, shop or noshop maybe.

I just checked the code - there is the spawnarg "shop_skip" which can be set to "1" on worldspawn to bypass the shop. Please test sometime whether it works for you?

[Fidcal]

I confirm it briefly shows the shop gui then moves on automatically. I still think the gui before that should say 'continue' not 'purchase shop'. Don't know if that is hard coded or text in the gui.

[greebo]

Yes, this seems about appropriate. Can you file this on the tracker?

[Fidcal]

OK, done.

[Fidcal]

Just realized the fanfare sound has been missing from Mission Complete for some time. Did we have it with Saint Lucia?

 

My stealth score was 0 but I was pretty stealthy. The only medium alert was to extinguish a torch which drew 2 or maybe 3 guards towards it. I would deduct 1 for that. I had some very minor 'thought I saw...' but nothing else. Do rats count towards deducting from stealth? They are neutral so I would think not.

[Ishtvan]

I think the stealth score still adds up all alerts without reaching any "saturation point," for example 10 level 1 alerts brings you all the way down to zero. Maybe the torch was a level 3 alert or something, but multiply by 4 guards and you're down to zero again. We've talked about changing this eventually so that each alert level can only bring the score down so far, no matter how many of those alerts happen. It's pretty low priority, but doesn't take that long and would be nice to have before release.

[Fidcal]

I'd much rather see it out of 100 and reduce it by 1 for each of those medium 'extinguish' alerts. So 10 such alerts still gives 90% which better represents the degree of stealth. The guards never actually spotted or heard the player but were only very suspicious. Then deduct say 5 to 10% for each actual high alert. If a single alert brings in 4 other AI that's 5 alerts. That's a pretty big commotion and imo justifies reducing the stealth score by 25 to 50%. Two such big alerts gives 50% or even down to zero. That's fair enough. That is not stealthy play imo; that's world war III. Many players do not mind such alerts and that's fine - but let's not pretend they should get say 90% stealth score. Let them be happy to have a poor stealth score and enjoy it as a runaway or bashfest. The stealth score is really for players who try to play stealthy, even ghost. Such players would aim to keep it in the 90's and the ghoster would want to aim for 100%.

 

I should add what I said before after Outpost: I now think the visual actuity of the AI is damn near perfect. In so many situations in dark shadow crouching but close they just begin to mutter "...thought I saw something" and it feels absolutely right to me. This on an ambient of 4 to 5.

[Ishtvan]

We should probably start a new thread on stealth score so as not to clutter this one.

 

That said, the problem I have with having it out of 100 is that then if you get say one of the worst possible alert - being positively identified and entering combat and say killing an AI, it's only down 10/100 and it's down to 90%. The same as if you got 10 minor mutterings. That doesn't feel right to me. Getting positively ID'd and getting into combat should pretty much insure a zero. That's why I like a system where each level of alert has some lower limit below which the score doesn't fall, so even if you get 100 low level mutterings, you're still at say 9/10 or 90% or whatever.