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The TDM community is much too small to support multiple versions. For example, snatchers modpack hasn't even reached 100 downloads on ModDB yet and my own patch is still under 700 after some time...

Ok, let me start by saying that TDM was never supposed to be a simple copy Thief 1/2 mechanics in a newer engine. It was always catered towards the more hardcore players, seeking a challenge. Do we really need to restrict mantling while shouldering at all? > Yes, because all the 100+ existing FMs were designed with the current ruleset. Changing the ruleset afterwards could alter or even break the vision an FM author had for their mission and that is something we explicitly want to protect because these authors sometimes put years of work into their missions. If we restrict the player while shouldering, what should the rules be? > It was argued that lifting a body over small ledges is already possible, by dropping the body and moving it around without shouldering. This is very cumbersome, however, so being able to mantle small ledges while shouldering would be a nice quality of life improvement. While shouldering, what's the tallest object that can be mantled? > Waist high. Height could be controlled by a cheat-cvar. While shouldering, should there be different object height requirements between crouched and standing? > Yes, crouched should be lower. It would create some additional tension to have to stand up to perform the mantling. While shouldering, can the player mantle during a fall or jump across to another ledge? > Player cannot jump while shouldering. Conversely, he should not be able to mantle while shouldering and falling. While shouldering, what mantle types are allowed out of: push, pushNonCrouch, pull, pullFast, hang? > Definitely not hang and anything pull. That is only triggered for big heights. While shouldering, it should probably play the usual viewport animation, but a bit slower.

I mean, yes, obviously there is an internal forum where decisions are made regarding how to move forward with the game. That's how things work. And not just in our team, everywhere. Or do you see Apple discuss their business plans and new "innovations" in public? That being said, the team values all well though out ideas, feedback and suggestions, but even if everyone agrees that a certain feature would be nice to have, it doesn't automatically mean that it's going to happen, because there has to be a dev willing to do the work. You have to remember that we are all doing this for free on our free time. Every dev picks the task they are interested in the most. And that's precisely the reason why these excruciatingly long beta phases are so annoying: they prevent you from doing the stuff you really want to do. TDM is open-source and you can do with it whatever you like, but for something to be integrated officially into the game, the team has to agree on that. If you want to see a feature happen, implement it yourself and send in the patch, like Daft Mugi does. But be warned: Not everything listed in the bug tracker is a feature that has been fully agreed upon. It is always a safe bet to ask first, before doing the work. If you patch is not integrated into the core mod, you are of course free to offer it as a mod for TDM. Regarding the internal decision making process. It is rarely about personal preference, but more about: Is it in line with the existing vision / look & feel of TDM? Could it break anything? Number 2 especially applies to breaking FMs, which is a no-go because of the enormeous work mappers have put into their FMs.

Introduction A project is underway, led by Geep, to eventually provide English language subtitles (or if you prefer, "closed captions") for all the non-story phrases (e.g., barks) of the stock AI characters. The non-story phrases are identified by the "verbosity speech" subtitle tag. The hope is that these subtitles would be distributed as part of the future TDM 2.12 core and so available to all FMs, both old and new. Since there are 5-10K such phrases in total, this project will take a while. Let me know if you'd like to help. This forum thread can be used for project coordination, and to provide info about - What subtitle sets (e.g., for particular AI) are underway and completed Emerging tools or methods for bulk testing Style guidance for TDM subtitle authors. To support this project, a style guide will be developed as experience accumulates. While motivated by providing some consistency to English speech-tagged subtitles, it may be of some interest to FMers creating story-tagged subtitles, and those subtitling in other TDM-supported languages. Potential improvements to TDM's subtitling system - particularly those that would involve engine/GUI changes - can be discussed in this companion thread: Subtitles - Possibilities Beyond 2.11 Current Status - Subtitles for Barks All TDM vocal sets planned for TDM 2.12 have been delivered. New: Fixup Needed to Run These Under 2.12 Beta 3 The Thug - Update May 6, 2023 released as testSubtitlesThug2 FM. This takes advantage of new 2.12dev features and changes to style guidelines. The Lord - Update May 4, 2023 released as testSubtitlesLord2 FM The Wench - Two postponed April versions - Nov 25, 2023 released as testSubtitlesWenchOriginal and testSubtitlesWenchPatched FMs. Two versions because of Bugtracker 6284. IMPORTANT: See final version at end of this list, released Jan. 14, 2024. The Young Builder (Builder 4) - Update May 30, 2023 released (again) as testSubtitlesYoungBuilder FM. (Corrects error in briefing syntax of original May 17 release.) Average Jack - June 8, 2023 released as testSubtitlesJack FM. The Pro - June 23, 2023 released as testSubtitlesPro FM. The Maiden - July 8, 2023 released as testSubtitlesMaiden FM The Grumbler - July 24, 2023 released as testSubtitlesGrumbler FM The Mature Builder (Builder 3) - August 15, 2023, released as testSubtitlesMatureBuilder FM The Lady (aka Noblewoman) - Sept 9, 2023, released as testSubtitlesLady FM The Moor - Sept 14, 2023, released as testSubtitlesMoor FM The Commander - Sept 30, 2023, released as testSubtitlesCommander FM The Simpleton - Oct. 21, 2023, released as testSubtitlesSimpleton FM Builder 1 & 2 (shared vocal set) - Nov. 8, 2023, released as testSubtitlesBuilder1and2 FM The Critic - Nov. 25, 2023, released as testSubtitlesCritic_FM Manbeast - Dec. 10, 2023, released as testSubtitlesManbeast FM NEW! Lady02 - Dec 21, 2023, released as testSubtitlesLady02 FM. Assisted by datiswous. NEW! The Drunk - Jan 6, 2024, released as testSubtitlesDrunk FM. Assisted by MirceaKitsune. NEW! The Cynic - Jan. 13, 2024, released as testSubtitlesCynic FM. Incorporates early demo subtitles by Dragofer. NEW! The Wench, Final Revision - Jan. 14, 2024, released as testSubtitlesWenchFinal FM . Assisted by Dragofer. See also original May version (released in November) in the list above. All TDM vocal sets planned for TDM 2.12 have been delivered. Thanks, @nbohr1more, for integrating these into the release. All AI vocal sets, including additional ones for future consideration - perhaps as "verbosity effects" - are listed here. Current Status - Utilities buildSubtitleShader.exe - Latest release of April 10, 2023. This program fabricates a TDM sound shader file specifically for the testSubtitles... series of FMs used here. It does so by wrapping each sound file name in a directory into a sound shader with uniform incremental naming. While limited to a single directory, the latest release simplifies merging runs from multiple directories. @datiswous reports that this Windows console program also works under Linux/wine, where it is used with similar "testSubtitle..."-derived FMs for verbosity "story" subtitling. checkDurationsInSRT - May 6, 2023 Update (bug fix) This Win/console program scans a directory for .srt files, examines the subtitles, and warns about those phrases/messages that are potentially too short or too long in time, or that seem to require too high a reading rate, expressed in characters per second. It also looks for within-file subtitle messages that overlap in time. soundDurationsCSV.exe - March 7, 2023 Release This Windows console program scans a directory of sound files, reporting their names and (using pre-installed ffprobe) durations with millisecond resolution. The resulting .csv file can then be imported into a custom Excel spreadsheet for subtitle editing. For more, see also Feb 20th comments . findTooLongSubtitles.exe - Minor update, June 23, 2023 Release This Win/console program scans a directory for .subs and .srt files, checks the length in characters of each subtitle line, and reports those that exceed a specified maximum. analyzeFieldWidth of April 27, 2023 (release not scheduled; too idiosyncratic). Used to determine, for 12pt Carleton font, and a representative sampling of bark subtitles, how many characters might reasonably fit within a given gui field width. Later, parts of this code were used to build calcStringWidth.exe discussed next. calcStringWidth.exe - Oct. 11, 2023 Release. Calculates the display width of an input string, for 4 candidate subtitle fonts Carleton and Stone, uncompressed or 16:9 compressed. statsForSubtitles - June 25, 2023 Release. Starting with The Pro vocal set, this Windows console program automates the gathering and reporting of the basic statistics included with the announcement of every vocal set release in this forum thread. Current Status - Spreadsheets and Related Explanatory Documents, including Workflow and Templates Work by Geep on each vocal set starts with instantiation of a pre-configured Excel spreadsheet. This is used for subtitle editing and to do automatic calculations to help manage constraints and decision making. The announcement of each AI subtitle release here includes a link to the corresponding spreadsheet. At first, the spreadsheet's columns, formats, calculations, and highlighting (and its distillation into template form) would change quite a bit between each AI. As of June, 2023 and AverageJack, it has largely stabilized, and is now documented: June 10 Documents Explaining Workflow and Excel Spreadsheet/Template (for AverageJack) The v5 template was used for vocal sets from June's Average Jack to November's The Critic. Further clarifications are now available: Dec 7 Update of the "Explained" Doc for Spreadsheet Template v5 Subsequent vocal sets, through to 2024's The Cynic, use template v6: NEW! Jan. 10, 2024 "Explained" Doc for Spreadsheet Template v6 Current Status - Style Guide for Barks As of Sept 2, Subtitle Style Guide - Part 1 is now available. NEW! As of Jan 16, 2024: Subtitle Style Guide - Part 2 with more discussion and references. Current Status - Third-Party Tools For editing of "story" SRT files, datsiwous found "kdenlive" particularly helpful [to do: link to how-to below]. Geep has been working with the simpler, audio-only "Cadet" for barks.

TBH, I've noticed that over the last months really. Nothing bad with having ideas for improvements, but, I've seen loads of things which aren't really improvements, but rather quick not thoroughly thought through ideas. Let's just say that those have become quite inflationary recently. Not saying that is the case here, but, @STiFU raises some great points. I don't think this would add anything to the mod. Apart from potentially breaking missions, to me, it makes perfect sense that you're not able to climb higher obstacles with a 100 kilo (adding the armor etc.) body over your shoulder... Let's put it like this: I rather think FM authors should take care that there are reasonably enough spots to hide a body, rather than the playable character being able to easily climb ladders with a 100 kilo plus body on his shoulder. I think that's more immersive.

My own take on the beta process is that devs on one side commit to adding and improving features, but also to ensuring that the new releases are, as far as reasonably achievable, free of bugs and that the new features aren't broken on release. To balance that we have a general policy to freeze the code when the beta starts, where code changes should primarily be fixes to issues detected in the beta. Exceptions are made on a semi-regular basis for changes that go further if they can be justified. That's mainly the case when there's still enough time left in the beta to get the changes properly tested and reviewed, or the risk of breakage is low i.e. because you're adding, but not changing things. For example, I worked extensively on assets this release cycle and didn't manage to get all the work done before the beta, so I was still busy until about the middle of the beta phase. However, I prioritised my work so that asset changes were ready ahead of the beta, while asset additions (which won't break anything) were made during the beta. I also treaded particularly carefully when adding the new assets to compensate for their shorter beta testing time. I might not have been around as much lately, but I only heard of Daft Mugi's slew of patches when we were discussing whether the next beta build should be the release candidate, which gets released as-is if no significant issues are reported. At that point any changes will either prolong the beta testing phase, or carry the risk of not working as intended. The plan was to reach this point at the end of january (if this was not prominently communicated somewhere it was a mistake). Personally I definitely see the value in trying to accommodate as many of these changes as possible because they make TDM more attractive to Thief players, Daft Mugi is even standing ready to introduce them to the TTLG community, and it looks like they're fairly simple changes. However, prolonging the beta comes with its own drawbacks. One is that players and mappers are delayed in getting access to all the other new features. Another is that the beta phase is a relatively draining part of the release cycle for the devs because new projects are mostly on hold while the focus is on getting to a stable build. One of the ideas behind dev builds was to shorten the beta phase by spreading out the testing. Ultimately, we've designated Stgatilov as the project lead so it's his task to call the shots on how to balance these demands.

Not sure if I understand correctly, but at least Volta 2 and HHVF include sequences where the player has to carry a body and changing the mantling behaviour would effect the intended gameplay. There are most probably more missions with that mechanic but I can't recall ATM. However, the T1/2 behaviour as a default in TDM would have made my mission design in HHVF much easier, because I had to desgin a certain area around the fact that the behaviour in question is missing. Otherwise, though, have to agree with Stifu on your first question; it would probably change things in too many missions now. That would probably require rough and roughest interventions in the geometry. A non-trivial task nobody is willing to take over.

If I may, I don't like the somewhat aggressive way of pushing for changes, especially in core mechanics, which seems to come from just one person's idiosyncrasies. And it's not the first topic I see like that in the last few days.

I guess I'll chime in here for clarity. When the TDM Dev Build thread is active: This is when big changes and contributions are supposed to be welcome. When we are in "Beta Testing" it is supposed to be a code freeze period where only regression fixes are applied. Sometimes a fix or improvement that shouldn't be in a beta phase gets added anyway if it is seen as exceptionally beneficial, but every time this is done it can potentially extend the beta testing for another 2 weeks or more and during that additional 2 weeks even more fixes and improvements are proposed by eager contributors which can potentially lead to a never ending beta. I am not particularly bothered by a long dev build phase, nor a long beta and am inclined to wait a long time until new official releases are available. Players, on the other hand, generally aren't keen on using Dev Builds so we need to stop at some point and christen something as official if only for the sake of getting more feedback in case regressions slipped through Dev or Beta testing. Let's be clear though, neither TDM 2.10 or 2.11b7 are "unplayable garbage". Enhancements are fantastic but if 2.11 doesn't include every improvement you can conjure it will still be better than 2.10 which is already an excellent TDM version. I am still in favor of most or all of your improvements making it into 2.11 but we have to follow the process and need to have agreement from the team about what happens next. If you disagree with the way that we rollout "dev > beta > release" cycles and want to offer your fixes before they go into TDM official release, I suggest you consider creating a fork project. You can call it "The Darker Mod" , "Better Dark Mod Enhanced", etc, any of the monikers you typically see on enhancement projects on Moddb. If your fork becomes popular then it may be the main one that players use sorta like how Debian Linux is the core project but most people use Ubuntu or Linux Mint. ( If you made such a fork, I would probably ask that you integrate my fresnel shader mod into it. )

The subtitle system afaik has one graphical look for all subs, so it's hard to see the difference except if you specify it. It would be nice if you could set colors for different persons.

Is there an easy way to handle situations where multiple guards are barking at once?

Edit: in post 5 I discovered Whisper which does this task MUCH better. So don't use vosk. Some of the info till post 5 is still relevant for subtitle editing in Kdenlive in general. I previously posted about this in a status update. To make it a bit more in-view for the future I post the info also in this topic. I recently figured out how to make subtitles work for missions following this wiki guide: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Subtitles You can type in the subtitle-text manually either in the .subs or .srt files (in a text-editor) or use an video editor for that (recomended for .srt). What is also possible on some advanced editors including the free and open source multiplatform (Windows, Linux and Intel-Mac) Kdenlive editor is to auto generate the subtitle text for you from the audio or video file. You can then export to an .srt file that works directly in tdm. If you want to use the subs files for shorter sentences, you can just copy text from the .srt files. In Kdenlive you can install speech to text libraries from VOSK. For this to work you have to download and install Python. Info how to do the process of installation and usage can be seen in the following video (6.5 minutes): To sum it up: Configure first time: Install Python. (on Windows) During setup, you have to select Advanced Options and there mark Add Python to environment variables (super important!). In Kdenlive go to menu settings, click on configure Kdenlive. In that configure window, click in the left menu on Speech to text. There you click on the link to download speech models. On the website ( https://alphacephei.com/vosk/models ) you can click on a model download link, but keep the click pressed and move your mouse with the link to the configure Kdenlive window. Kdenlive then asks to install the model from url. vosk-model-en-us-0.22-lgraph is probably decent for most use cases. but you can install and test them all. To use it: First load an audio or video file into the view by dragging the file in one of the audio or video bars at the bottom (video: v1, v2 or audio: a1, a2). Click on menu Project > Subtitles > Edit Subtitle tool. You see an extra Subtitles bar on top. Now you select the audio or video file (it is sellected when it is outlined with an orange border) in the specific bar and then click on menu Project > Subtitles > Speech recognition. In the Speech recognition dialog, you select the correct language model and choose option Selected clip. After generation, you can preview the generated subtitles via the top right window. Make sure it is at starter position for playback. Using an audio file, you see a black background with the subtitles on top. Now you can tweek the position and edit the text directly in the Subtitles bar. This takes up the most time. Unfortunatelly the generation is not flawless, so you have to correct some words. Tweeking the subtitles for Requiem took me hours, becouse I wanted them to line up differently. Usually the subtitles are not generated as full senteces. This looks sloppy. If you want to add subtitles quickly without spending much time on it, it can be done this way. If you want to do it right, it still takes a lot of time in my experience. To export to .srt is shown in the following video: Although actually it's just one step: Click on menu Project > Subtitles > Export subtitle file. Alternativelly you can just save the kdenlive project and then the srt is exported as well. Every save will update the srt file. I might create a wiki article about it later. Kdenlive edit window:

Allowing mantle while carrying a body was originally proposed by Bikerdude one year ago (January 2022). https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=5892 I agreed with him, since that is how Thief 1 & 2 work. I've submitted patches, and due to feedback, I've submitted three patches each with a different behavior, starting in August 2022 (5892) : (Patch v1) Always enable mantling while carrying a body. (Patch v2) Only enable mantling while carrying a body if "pm_mantle_while_shouldering" cvar is set. This is already available in 2.11 beta 7. (Patch v3) Restrict mantling at the waist. There is no agreement about how this should work yet. I've spent over 12 hours of work and testing on (v3) so far, so it would be incredibly discouraging if a final decision is not made between versions (v1), (v2), or (v3) for 2.11. Personally, I think patch (v1) always enable mantling while carry a body is best. This matches Thief 1 & 2 and does not require a cvar. If (v3) is chosen, the rules need to be decided. Could you all please answer the following questions? (Please copy and paste the questions below when answering.) Do we really need to restrict mantling while shouldering at all? Is there a mission with a mantle trap? If so, which mission? If we restrict the player while shouldering, what should the rules be? While shouldering, what's the tallest object that can be mantled? While shouldering, should there be different object height requirements between crouched and standing? While shouldering, can the player mantle during a fall or jump across to another ledge? While shouldering, what mantle types are allowed out of: push, pushNonCrouch, pull, pullFast, hang? (Are there other rules to consider?) Resolved Patch v3 is included in 2.12 dev builds, starting with dev16778-10275, which is open to feedback during the dev release cycle. pm_mantle_while_shouldering cvar. pm_mantle_while_shouldering, default: 1 Which restriction for mantle while shouldering? 0 --- no mantling while shouldering a body (TDM original) 1 --- restricted mantling while shouldering a body 2 --- unrestricted mantling while shouldering a body (Cheat Mode) pm_mantle_maxShoulderingObstacleHeight cvar. pm_mantle_maxShoulderingObstacleHeight, default: 41 The maximum height of obstacles allowed for a shouldering body mantle Note that mantling above eye level is disabled regardless of this value

I've spent a lot of time recently submitting patches to fix some bugs and working on a few things that I think would really improve the feel of TDM for 2.11. They are very small changes, and they are meant to polish what's already there without changing or breaking anything for anyone. (Available 2.11 beta 7) Added player "tdm_toggle_sheathe" cvar and "Toggle Sheathe" setting (6232) (thread). Renamed "New Missions" to "Missions List" in main menu (6230). @nbohr1more cleaned up my original patch. Originally, proposed by @snatcher (post). Fixed initial difficulty highlight on Objectives screen (6229). @stgatilov cleaned up my original patch. Fixed Objectives title slightly cut off on low text scale (6234). @stgatilov cleaned up my original patch. Made it possible for the player to change "pm_noclipspeed", so noclip speed can be set (6237). (Available in next beta) Make "tdm_toggle_creep" work like other toggle cvars, and add "Toggle Creep" to the settings menu (6242) (thread). (Not available) Make the inventory parchment background (dds file) separate from the "Missions List" parchment background (dds file). Without the patch, if you change the inventory background, it will also change the main menu. Patch submitted (6241) to decouple the inventory background from the main menu. This is meant for players who want to edit the inventory background (dds file) themselves (e.g. reduce its brightness without affecting the main menu). When you drop a long distance and land in a mantle, damage is shown after the mantle animation is complete. Partial fix submitted (6231). I think I'll need @stgatilov's help on this one. Bikerdude was very kind and provided a test map for this, which helped to expose an issue with my original patch. ("pm_mantle_while_shouldering" cvar available in 2.11 beta 7) It was requested by Bikerdude one year ago to allow mantling while carrying a body. Due to feedback, I've submitted three patches each with a different behavior, starting in August 2022 (5892) (thread) : (Patch v1) Always enable mantling while carrying a body. (Patch v2) Only enable mantling while carrying a body if "pm_mantle_while_shouldering" cvar is set. This is already available in 2.11 beta 7. (Patch v3) Restrict mantling at the waist. There is no agreement about how this should work yet. I've spent over 12 hours of work and testing on (v3) so far, so it would be incredibly discouraging if a final decision is not made between versions (v1), (v2), or (v3) for 2.11. Personally, I think patch (v1) always enable mantling while carry a body is best. This matches Thief 1 & 2 and does not require a cvar. If (v3) is chosen, the rules need to be decided. These are the final issues / bug trackers I have for 2.11. I hope they can make it into the final release of 2.11, because I think it would make TDM feel more polished and give a better first impression for newcomers. And, Thief players would have a better first time.

What's the intended way of reaching this bottle? I see that there is a ladder there, but you can't swim up the current is too strong. I've been able to sometimes shoot the bottle down with an arrow and if gets pushed by the current.

You can't really compare an open source modding comunity with a company like Apple. Although maybe you're saying we aren't really a comunity project. Fair enough. I don't think it's neceserry to have a hidden forum for devs (just make it read only for regular users, but at least we can follow your internal discussions), except if there are things in it that need to be hidden to normal users. I guess that is the case then. No hard feelings, just an observation. It would be nice though if it stays seperate and devs would not link to it in regular forum posts. And maybe some of the decissionmaking should be posted about outside the internal section? Btw. of which members does the team consist currently? I see a lot of (I think) inactive members with dev status. Originally The team page adressed this, but it is not updated anymore (no idea why) and usually if somebody says something about that, it is ignored.

I don't need thousands of people modding. The result are games like Skyrim, where you need hundreds of mods to play in the first place ;). But I am disappointed in the low download numbers for even the core TDM on ModDB. Maybe most people use the included updater, but they must have downloaded the base package first some time ago. So are there any hints about how many people play TDM? Like how many downloads are there for a new fan mission once it is released? This might also be interesting as an internal rating in the download list on which missions are the most favorite ones...

The subtitle generation doesn't take different voices into account. So often different voices end up in the same subtitle line (so you have to devide them by editting). Can for example be seen in fm Hair in the Snare where the mission intro has 2 voices.

I rest my case. But this is not a British phenomenon; can be found in France (not so often) and Germany (definitely more often) as well.

I'm starting with The Thug's barks (appx 400), for which maybe half of the needed subtitles were available on the Thug Vocals wiki page. (These pages are no longer maintained and so mostly obsolete.) I've got a test map suitable for testing a single subtitle, but it doesn't scale for bulk testing. Also looking at existing caption/subtitle style guides.

Yes, sorry about that. We could be clearer with our communication in this regard. However, please understand, that it is really not that common for external contributors to be working so much on bug fixes and new features, so this is kind of new to us as well. And of course the team has to agree upon all contributions, regardless of external or internal origin. The beta was announced Dec, 2nd, and that was also the moment for 2.11 feature-freeze.

As someone new to contributing, this has been an incredibly frustrating and stressful experience. I've felt like I'm racing towards an unknown deadline. I've lost track of how many hours I've put into TDM testing and code writing this month. One of the biggest sources of stress is not knowing the beta release schedule. TDM 2.10 was released March 2nd, 2022. So, my thinking was that these could get in this month (January), and then February would be mostly frozen. These are small changes compared to other patches I've seen made, and I don't consider them at risk of breaking the game. The "mantle while shouldering" code change is simple, but the hardest part is agreeing on its behavior. That changed behavior will affect both players and mappers. At least some players want that change, so I don't understand the hold up and big controversy. The main reason I saw against it was that an existing mission might have a mantle trap, so this change would break their mission. But no example was given of even a single case of this. The other source of frustration is not knowing what the internal dev communication is. I've been doing my work mostly in the dark. Also, sometimes I get surprised by a message like "the group has decided X" without a reason. And, from my point of view, my changes have been mostly bug fixes uncovered during beta testing. It would be a shame for players to have to wait an entire year for these bug fixes. And, I'm writing a TDM getting started guide for Thief players, incorporating these recent changes, because I know veteran Thief players would likely enjoy these changes. Again, not knowing the release schedule, I'm also racing to finish that guide against an unknown deadline. I wanted that guide's release to be the same day as TDM 2.11's release.

Like... who was that person who pushed the latest major mantling changes during beta?... UPDATE: Maybe things got mixed in my mind

Just saw the discussion on the bug tracker. Please don't feel discouraged, @Daft Mugi. A lot of your stuff has already been integrated during beta phase, which we usually never do, so that's actually something you can be proud of. Once we start beta, we have a feature block even for long standing devs. Only bugfixes go into trunk at that point. New features are only commited to feature branches and will be integrated in the next version. But I get it. I've been in your shoes a few times myself.

To be honest, that can be said about 99% of changes to the game Yes, that's exactly what is happening I'm trying to filter all these changes depending on how scary they look to me. Out of what Daft Mugi has listed that is not in beta211-07 yet, I think only the fix for damage from fall + mantle is going to make it. The rest of the changes... I'd better not hurry. The general rule is that we do development before beta starts, not after. And especially not in the second half of beta.

There has been a long internal discussion about mantlling while shouldering, and it has been pretty much inversally agreed upon that v1 and v2 are a no-go. v3 was the best compromise we came up with: A nice quality of live improvement while staying true to the original gameplay rules that mappers have designed there missions around. However, not everyone was 100% onboard. If you have an implementation for v3 already, that's cool. Are there any open questions about this or why are you saying that there was no agreement about how this should work? Generally speaking, 'though, I am very surprised @stgatilov is letting bigger changes like this in so late in this beta phase. We are usually very restrictive about new features as soon as beta starts because it usually just prolongs the beta phase.

@Frost_Salamander By releasing it as a .pk4 for mappers to include it in their FMs players might have it in a handful of missions in an uncertain future. By including it in a ready-pack players can use it right away in all missions. It will be part of the TDM Modpack, and it will be maintained and evolve there. Regardless, mappers and modders can extract the relevant files and do whatever they please without hesitation. No need to ask nor credit. Furthermore, I remain available to assist if required.

I see your point, tho some of what's in the "Potential for translations" section is about current capabilities. But I can drop that separate section and fold the current-capabilities stuff into the "As for translations..." paragraph. I'll start a new forum topic, too. Maybe "Subtitles - Possibilities Beyond 2.11" would be general enough. Edit: wiki page edited, new forum threads started.

As far as I know the most up-to-date one is the script I maintain (there is a single tdm_export script which supports both ASE and LWO export). However I haven't specifically tested with the latest Blender 3.4 series, so it's possible that it will need an update. I believe this information is out of date. The problem of LWO losing smoothing information was caused by the Blender exporter itself ignoring object-specific data and enforcing a hard-coded smoothing angle. This is now fixed in my latest version, although the old behaviour is selectable at the time of export if you don't want to deal with object smooth groups. As far as I can recall, when I was testing this, the smoothing options did take effect in the engine (although I couldn't say whether they were 100% mathematically correct).

I wonder what other peeps workflow is for generating subtitles for missions. I saw subtitles for A new Job, St. Lucia and Written in Stone.

I'm sorry, but I think this part ("Potential for translations") should not be included in this page. Because the wiki page is about instructions on making subtitles work in the way they are currently possible. The part "Potential for translations" adds some possible future stuff that is not really relevant for the article. It should be better posted in the forum and discussed. You could create a new wiki page with that info and link to it under here: (last sentence under "What the gamer sees")

Btw. I'm almost done with the subtitles, so currently not recomended to start creating them.

I just finished this (finally). Absolutely fantastic mission, I really enjoyed. All in all, as I said, great, great mission. One of my favorites, definitely.

I just registered this forum in order to give feedback. This mission is fantastic! I haven't played Thief in years, and this fan mission evoked the same kind of feelings I've had while playing the original. The Dark Mod is a remarkable in reproducing the feel so well. I'm so happy that one of the first mission I've played is this masterpiece. I haven't finished it yet, and also, I haven't played the 1st. Will get back. Edit: I'm back; finished this. 4 secrets and 1214 lot. This was enjoyable until the end.