Macsen

What tickles me is that he has some of the most narrow minded and bigoted views I've come across, and yet he claims that his mind exists on some astral plane above the rest of us. Here's a man who doesn't like homosexuals, immigrants and other languages, but complains that everyone's the same.

What the hell does being able to argue have to do with journalism? Do you actually know what a journalist does? Anyway, it's obvious that I'm not bad at this arguing when you have to resort to ad hominem attacks instead of answering questions. You're quite obviously not getting much enjoyment from life if your idea of a good time is to start a web argument and insult others. You just come over as being frustrated and bitter.

Since you don't believe in anything after death, who are you trying to impress by living as a social hermit? It's all well and good pointing out that we're all selfish, and we're all in it for ourselves - I'm not disagreeing - but if we're not here for a reason there's no other point to existence but to enjoy yourself. You seem to have a lot of principles, for a nihilist. 'Stop being bloody selfish' you said. Why? Earlier you were tut tutting the fact that I go out and drink on a weekend. But why not, if we're all doomed anyway and there's no point to anything? Might as well have a few pints.

Worked on, Corleone style.

Not at all, I'm quite uniquely myself at all times, I just don't let that manifest itself as a feeling of resentment and hate towards those around me. So you don't get on with people who are different from you, and yet complain that everyone is the same? So you'd prefer it if everyone was like you, but... then they'd still all be the same, wouldn't they? So tell us oDDity, what are these amazing induvidual thoughts you've had that we couldn't even being to comprehend because we're all so narrow minded and grey?

oDDity, it's a mistake to think that just because people don't go around being cynical and complaining means they blithely accept the world around them. Also, that the company of people you don't agree with irritates you just means you don't get on well with people. I don't agree with most people, including family members, and have little in common with some friends. My job involves talking to some people whose views I find abhorrent. But I can still find some common ground and, if not be friends, than at least 'get on' and be polite.

But oDDity, every forum has a grumpy guy who claims to be individual while everyone else is a mindless sheep. I know at least four other oDDities, operating under different names in different communities. There's only ever one every forum, otherwise their proud induviduality* might be encroached upon. See what happens when oDDity and Zylon Bane meet, for example. Instant friction as two sides of a coin try to turn to face the other. *Manifested as rudeness and pretending not to want friends because they can't make any.

Don't see why being concerned at the illness counts as 'selfish'. Him being ill has no bad reprecussions for me, I'm just concerned about him losing his mind to dementia, which is a fate worse than Death really. If Dementia had turned up in any of his discworld novels it would have been a far less compassionate character. No I don't 'know' him, but talked to him for long enough to know that he's a genuinely nice guy, and that's enough for me to feel some empathy.

Who?

Get a room Harry Potter fans! I think the third film relocated the school to the Scottish highlands, which is where it is located in the books. The landscape around the school looked much better in the third film I thought. I don't mind if a few landmarks change position, it's supposed to be a magical castle after all - maybe it moves every now and then like the castle in Krull.

I'm not sure why mappers would need to know that this an that building are next to each other, unless they plan to base their maps in or around those buildings, in which case there would be even more inconsistencies as everyone would portray the same buildings differently. But hey-ho, if it works it works, and if it doesn't no harm done. The foundation of a world laid out in the wiki is certainly no worse than what most people would come up with. But I'd prefer that it develops organically through various maps from the release of the toolset on, rather than having a 'Games Master' continue to develop a vision for the world and expect everyone else to build around it. On that point, how will this 'official' Dark Mod world would develop over time? Say a mapper creates a particularly good mission, would the details from that mission then be added as part of the wiki? Who would decide? Does an elite order of dark mod mappers come together and say 'We declare this to be Canon!' Or will the wiki just stay as it is with the most basic info forever?

I know, I was just making a joke. On a serious note, I don't think he'll have much brain damage because he doesn't often get punched. That's why they call him 'pretty boy', no?

He can afford new hands.

Granted, but at what point does the information stop being informative and start being restrictive? I think the most important word in what you said was 'basics' - looking at the wiki there's a lot of information there that falls into what SE would no doubt call 'prescriptive' language. For instance, is it necessary that mappers are told that the Builder's Grand Cathedral and City Council Chambers are atop the same hill? That mages are forbidden from taking civic positions? That books of magic are all written in a specific language? That's not really the basic information, it's pretty specific. It's no less specific info than the Thief games gave us about the precise geography of the city and inner workings of the factions, across two whole games. The big problem I think is that many people will at first just build missions they had planned for Thief 2 or DS but put on hold until the Dark Mod comes out. I hope as you do that we don't just see a rehash of the thief world - that's the worst case scenario. But I don't really think we'll see missions that fit around what's in the wiki either.

I think the dark mod world is sufficiently large to allow pretty much any interpretation of the toolset by a mapper. A good map will be a good one however much it has in common with other maps, and we're not in a position to demand that people stick to pre-arranged plots and synopses anyway. That the builders like to build, the inventors like to invent, the mages like to use magic, and the pagans are pagan is probably clear enough without going into detail. Therefore a general understanding of the setting as a medieval/steampunk one would probably suffice. Beyond that, I'm excited to see individual interpretations of the world.

Exactly. That's another reason why I think the dark mod should be deliberately vague about the city's history and not ascribe too much detail to the factions. For one thing people will mostly ignore it, and also because it's better for a world to grow organically as a community project and without the artifical restriction of pre-designed plots. It would be nice to enter each level with the same anticipation and knowing the same amount about the world as you did when you first heard a guard say, 'I'm going down to the bear pits tomorrow...'

Another good point that ties into what you said Sparhawk is the length of readables. Unless the map maker can spin a hell of good yarn I think people should aim for about 3 pages max. One clue should be enough but not if it's on page 12. Regarding the ghosting I mentioned earlier, I think it should be possible to get through mission without letting a guard become aware of your presence. It's up to the map maker to make this realistic and not repetitive (enless alcoves like Springheel said). A good example I think is the Bank misson from Thief II where you hve to shut things down all over the building just to open the vault, a realistic amount of work to get in, while still being able to ghost past all the guards and machines. The last defence for a valuable object would probably be a machine or a lock anyway, since they're probably expecting an armed attack not a thief with all night to figure out how to beat their security system. The guards could be overwhelmed by a small gang, but they'd be stopped by the security system at least long enough for some elite reinforcements to show up.

For those of you too lazy to click the link:

Or, at least, a hoard of bones. I'd never heard about this place before. There's some inspiration there for woo lovin' dark mod mission builders. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_ossuary

Joe Calzaghe just won Sports Personality of the year, with Hatton in 3rd place. Looks like boxing is becoming popular again...

It's really up to clever mapping to try and please those that want to make use of their tools as well as those who prefer to ghost. The advanced physics gives the mapper all kinds of oppertunities for clever use of tools beyond what was on offer before. Imagine for instance drawing out a guard using a noise arrow and then pulling on a rope arrow to make a box fall behin him, blocking his route back to the door he was guarding (or on top of him if you want to be mean). But at the same time you could just use the box and arrow to scale one of the windows over his head. Like with the multiple entrances, there could be a path for tools and a (more difficult) way for those who want to pass through completely undetected.

It's becoming a bit of a golden age for British boxers. But Ricky Fatton tends to get cut around the eyes and bleed a lot. I'd like him to win it but I don't see it happening. I'll be in bed with a cold.

And yet you frequent forums every day to read the opinions of other people. Imagine that. I, on the other hand, want to know what other people like in their missions, being a beta mapper who plans on building a few. Which is why I started the thread. P.S. Are you guys always this grouchy? Or did you all get out the wrong side of the bed this morning?

It will, because I can ignore you. Goodbye. Three more suggestions: Use Marble sparingly - It may look good on the floor but marble makes a hell of a lot of noise underfoot and sneaking very difficult. The player shouldn't have to travel everwhere at a snail's pace just because you want to the floor looking nice and shiny. Gameplay is more important than looks, as the thief games can attest to. Put a rug down or something. Give arrows and tools sparingly - Gas and water arrows should not be plentyful enough to be a get out of jail free card in every situation. The player should have enough on his person to use at a few choice moments, but not feel that he can douse every torch and gas every guard in the mission. But never put the player in a position where he cannot complete a mission without being seen because he's run out of something. It should be ghostable - The mission should be completable without requiring the player to be seen by any hostile AI.