Macsen

I see no problem with using 'should' and 'always' because I've already made clear at the start of the thread that I'm taking about my preferences for a mission. If the mission designer wanted to make the kind of mission I prefer they should always do the things I've outlined above. Cause that's what I like to see in a mission. It's fair enough saying 'I don't agree with you' - if I didn't want a discussion why would I have stated this thread? - but when you're using words like 'prejudice' and 'narrow minded' you're attacking me not my opinion, and what you're really saying here is 'how dare you have your opinion, it reflects badly on you as a person!' Why the hell not? Fair enough disagreeing with me, but who are you to tell me what kinds of missons I should like and which ones I shouldn't? I don't like stupid zombies and bugbeasts. You do. Fair enough. Get over it, move on. Now please, let's get this thread back on track. It was going well.

I'm sorry SE, but did you read the VERY FIRST paragraph of this thread?! Here it is again, because you obviously missed it the first time, the important bits in red: I would like to know, SE, how exactly I could have worded this in such a way as to communicate more strongly that these are my ideas for good missions and that everyone else is free to disagree with them?! You're obviously just spoiling for a fight here, but sorry mate I'm not taking the bait.

Another few to add to my list: No Key Hunts - the mission should not include an excessive number of keys hidden in hard to find locations in order to slow the game to a crawl and make the mission appear larger. Taxing puzzles - The mission could contain a few puzzles to tax the player's brains. They should be hard enough to be satisfying, but not so difficult as to be frustrating. But Thief fans are by their nature more patient thatn most other video game players so don't worry if a puzzle takes a good 15 mins to solve. Try to ensure that the puzzle does not jar with its surroundings - for instance, a nobleman is unlikely to want to stack rocks on pulleys in order to get into his bedroom, and a pagan farmer is unlikely to open his barn with a five digit key pad. Keep it Compact - Large missions are fine but levels that sprawl unnecessarily and involve large amounts of travel with little incident may get boring. You can suggest the size of an area with a good view - the player does not have to visit every street and rooftop to appreciate the scale of the city or other location. Don't drown the player - Don't require the player to swim through a underwater cavern before his breath runs out, then present him with two or more tunnels, all but one of which lead to a dead end and certain death. Don't make traps trial and error - A player should be able to deduce that opening a door will shoot a gas arrow into his face before doing so (a point I had to raise with alexius on the hammerite imperium project). Don't set traps the player can't know about until he's dead.

That's why I said "Each to his own I guess" and "Agree to disagree". I hope you're not just skimming my posts and wasting time replying to things that aren't there. I promised I'd drop the issue. While I don't agree with all the plans the team has I wish them the best of luck and don't want to hurt the project in any way. The shrill tone of your retorts suggest you're letting this discussion become a person issue. I have no interest in going down that avenue either. We're discussing a set of guidelines for a video game modification, nothing more.

Do you think I have time during work hours to post essay-long rebuttals on internet forums? Some of us have jobs to do, you know! I'll outline some quick thoughts, seeing as its lunchtime over here. We seem to be mostly in agreement, it's just the wording that's causing problems. I'll ignore all that you do agree with me on. Regarding the story - as I said somewhere on the last page it doesn't have to be a complex story about an imporobable affair or whatever. Just little stories to make the characters feel more alive. Everyday, humdrum things. Perhaps someone could mention that they visited a dentist and had a tooth pulled out by some new steampunk contraption and it hurt like hell. Just little tales to add a bit of life to the mission. A sense of discovery - As I said they don't all have to be 'finding the lost city' style moments. Chopping down a banner to find an alcove, or something. I'd be suprised to find an old house without anything to find it it. Anticipation - Why should this kill the suprise? What the player finds where he's going doesn't have to be what he thought was going to be there. A twist - We'll just haveto agree to disagree on this one. But as I said before twists don't have to be big. Personally I enjoy 'em. Originality - Team members don't want me to discuss this. Keep it human - Agree to disagree. I don't like zombies and bug beasts. It's not much of a sneaking game if they just walk after you when you're caught. Haunts are fine because at least they involve some sneaking. Each to his own I guess. Rewarding Loot - As I said before realistic placement of loot and loot as a reward aren't mutually exclusive. Loot would be in hard to get areas - whoever owns the house doesn't want thieves and servants getting them after all. The loot would be where the guards are. Anyway, I think this disagreement is best resolved through the medium of level building!

The artist should create for himself, not for others. Art for the sake of art and all that. (Personally though I'll just be trying to create as popular a mission as possible first in the hope that the Dark Mod is a big success. I can do the arty farty stuff later on.)

I've resolved the factions discussion through another medium. I'm drawing a line under it: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really Springheel, I deal with politicians all day and I've never met someone with the capacity to flatly deny something so clear and obvious. I was a writer when you were drawing up these faction histories, for god's sake. Every single faction in TDM corresponds with the factions in Thief. It's not just "inspiration" - the whole point of the mod is that people can make thief missions, under a slightly different name (even the title of the mod is a rip off of the title of the first thief game, fer crissakes). And that's what they will do. If I hadn't dealt with you before I would think you're taking the piss. You just argued yourself that we don't need new factions. Implying the ones we have are in fact old. Old thief factions with different names. If the player can populate his level with new and exciting characters all the better. I just don't want to see the same standard hammerite cathedral/pagan forest/mechanist factory missions I'm so tired of by now. If you're talking about stereotypes, see every single hammerite/builder and pagan that ever populated a thief game, and I don't see why the mission designer should have to confine himself to those boring old factions if he wants to create a new one. Anyway, this argument has exactly zip to do with the point of this thread.

Come off it, seriously. They have slightly altered names and backstory. Nothing to be ashamed of, just look how much WoW/Warhammer steals from Lord of the Rings. But there's no point denying it. Oh so these factions aren't new as you claim then? I thought you just said they were completely original bar some superficial resemblances to thief. Fair enough if someone wants to, as SE pointed out above. But the whole point of the 'city' is that it's nowhere epecific and can be whatever the mission designer wants it to be (hence the ambigious 'the city' name). This is a bit different from being stuck with the same old factions over and over we've been thieving from for the last 10 years. It gets stagnant after a while.

NH can do all voices, including yours!

I agree with this, but to be fair on Sotha he wasn't saying that the player be presented with reams of historical documentation. I think it's more important that the mission designer does the research and constructs the history, and keeps it in mind when designing the area. To take his example: "It is not just The Kings Square, but a square that was used for executions by the kings' command sixty seven years ago." You could have a square called 'The Kings Square', a pub called The King's Head, and a guillotine outside. The player could draw his own conclusions! I concur completely with this point. I suggest it be quoted verbatim in the document! Placing loot in areas which reward effort, and realism aren't mutually exclusive. After all, wouldn't loot be kept in well guarded areas? Away from servants, let alone thieves.

Not a downer at all SE, the whole point is that we discuss things and come out with a few solid guidelines. But I'm not sure how suggesting a range of different stories, locations and factions would lead to 'similar' missions. In fact your desire for standard buildings, no stories and facing the same factions over and over would seem to me to be rather more dull. If you ever get the editor working it seems to me that you would be a very unambitious mission designer! How exactly will they all end up being the same, since there are an unlimited amount of stories that could be set in a medieval/steampunk universe? The thing is, pretty much every mission I've ever played does have a story, even if it's just to explain why you're in that setting and why you're stealing what you are. It can be communicated through writing, dialogue, setting, and so on. A mission without a story and just goals, as you're suggesting, would be very dull. Just a matter of 'steal this' - no context, no explanation of why you're there, nothing? I would consider the mission designer to be a lazy one if that were the case. How exatly would it just the same standard thieving goals lead to more originality? OK, but I've broken into a hundred dreary houses in thief FMs and they aren't getting any more interesting. How exactly would this lead to more originality in missions? I think you've completely missed my point here. I didn't mean a city with a lot of living people waling around in it, but one that feels lived-in, ancient and organic. But also, if there's no one around in this city of yours who are you going to sneak past? Of course it doesn't have to take place in the City, but any other location should have the same attributes. I'm keenly anticipating your reasons as to why this is the case? Again you misunderstand. A twist doesn't have to be a big twist - it should just be that the mission isn't exactly what the player expected it to be when he started. As I said, the Sword is a good example. There's no big twist, you do end up breaking into a mansion and stealing a sword as you set out to do. The nature of the mansion itself is the twist. At the moment we don't have any new factions, they were all stolen from Thief (a 10 year old game), so a few more wouldn't go amiss. But seriously, who wants to play the same old Pagan ruins/Builder church mission until old age? Not very original. Sparhawk - I'm not suggesting putting loot in hard to find and unlikely places as a 'reward'. I dislike hidden loot and that's another thing I should have added to the thread. The loot can be in an obvious position on a table right in front of you and still be difficult to get to. It's a sneaking game and the challenge should be getting to the loot in the first place rather than having to scour every part of the map for it. SE - As I said above, I'm not suggesting putting loot around mission objectives. Not sure where you got that from.

I thought we could share our ideas about what makes a good thieving mission, and then perhaps create a guide for the wiki for budding mission designers out of this thread. Here are some of mine - you're free to disagree. Multiple ways to enter a building/complete a mission - As well as adding to the replay factor it also gives the world a sense of freedom and makes it feel more like a real place than a linear game. Story - A mission whould have a story, or a lot of little interwoven stories, even if the player isn't directly involved in it. You should be able to follow the lives of some characters through conversations and so on. A sense of discovery - The Indiana Jones effect of coming across a lost city, or even just finding that old trap door that Lord xxxx mentioned in his diary. A Living City - The city in which the game takes place is a living, breathing monster. You should be able to hear it groan and hum. It should feel like it's ancient even if you just created it five minutes ago. Anticipation - You should always give an inkling to the player of what his deistination or next task is, so that he has something to work towards. A twist - The mission should always end up slighty different from what the player though it was going to be when he started. A good example is the Sword mission from TDP. Originality - There's always a place for a builder church or guarded mansion, but if you can create an entirely new faction or setting all the better. Again you can start them off thinking it's a standard mission, then chance tack. Keep it human - Zombies and bug beasts have their place but try to break it up with some proper human interaction once in a while. See TDP for how not to do it. Plenty of Sneaking - The Dark Mod at its core is a tight sneaking game and that's where the game gets a lot of it's tension too. Getting past the guards should be tough. Just running away from burricks and zombies through endless caverns is not sneaking. Rewarding Loot - Every task completed should come with a quick reward for what you have done. In the old FPS games it was health & ammo, in the Dark Mod it's probably loot. Don't just throw it around where the player doesn't deserve it.

It was quite a good game apart from the sluggish controls and small poky missions with load points. There was a lack of different routs to complete missions. You just felt caged and frustrated. But I'm sure if someone ported the game to the Thief II engine it would feel much fresher and freer.

The Dark Mod was finished moths ago. They're just keeping it back to feed the sense of expectation.

I don't think pyjamas were invented back then. That's why its called the Dark Ages, people had to turn the light off cause they went to bed in the nip.

There's a good section on the BBC website about beating arachnaphobia using systematic desensitization therapy. EDIT: Here it is.

I didn't say he wasn't... Not that I've ever played System Shock.

Start eating when you're young and by the time you get bald - ta da! - instant wig.

Well it's a thieving game so we might as well blatantly rip off all that is good in the world of gaming. The pipe-mania mini game is from Bioshock btw.

How about being able to rejig mechanist security cameras so that they detect and attack guards? This could be done through some kind of pipe-mania style mini-game...

How about a trail of sweets that will lure fat guards into a corner for blackjacking?

I have some icon like a wheel with an old man face in it on mine. I think that Renzatic made it ages ago.

I haven't seen the film but the book is awesome. It did steal a lot from Lord of the Rings though.

Erm...