eigenface

Thanks for the reply, but I still can't get out of dark mod once I start it. I can switch to non-fullscreen mode, either in settings or by alt-enter, but then I just get OS chrome around the edges of the screen, and nothing else changes. Still can't switch to another program, still can't select anything outside the dark mod window (which takes up the whole screen.) My cursor is the dark mod cursor and I can't get an OS cursor, so I can't interact with anything outside the dark mod window, can't select another program, can't close the window, etc. I'm on win 7 64. Any help much appreciated - I can't even get started with this.

Probably answered many times already, in places I haven't been able to find. Probably many more questions of this type to come. I'm supposed to start up dark mod and dark radiant at the same time, so I can preview my map in dark mod with a command from dark radiant. I don't see how that's supposed to happen. Once dark mod is started, it's impossible for me to switch to any other program. Is there a way to run dark mod in a window instead of fullscreen?

That's a good idea - the delay seems like a "minimally invasive" way to solve the problem.

"In reality, you don't need to cycle through your weapons, they're all assigned specific numbers on the keyboard." So are you saying it's okay for the next/prev cycle to alert guards, because you don't have to use the next/prev cycle? Why include the next/prev cycle at all then, if you're not supposed to use it because it's not supposed to be safe? I find next/prev more convenient than weapon number keys in time-sensitive situations, because I don't have to take my hand off WASD, look down at the keyboard number keys, and then reorient my fingers on WASD again. If you're including the next/prev cycle at all, it shouldn't give away your position. I can see this discussion is going in the direction of "Nobody cares, implement it yourself if you really want it." I will if I get time. Right now, I just wanted to give my opinion on "Things that could be improved".

Here's an alternate "middle ground", which may be simpler and more intuitive than the one I just described. There are no special cases - the sword is treated the same as all the other weapons. There are 2 steps to readying a weapon: A Select - this changes the weapon icon in your inventory HUD, but does not change the on-screen weapon model or your visibility B Confirm - this changes the on-screen weapon model and affects your visibility The next/prev keys only do A, that is, they only cycle through the weapon icons in your HUD. Then you click to do B, confirm, which switches to the correct weapon model and affects you visibility. The weapon number keys do both A and B, they select and confirm with one key press, that is, they change the weapon icon in your HUD, change the model, and affect your visibility.

double post

"Your weapons and your keys are in separate "inventories", so that scenario would never happen." You're right, my mistake. But my argument still applies. Just replace "key" in my sentence with "water arrow" or "broadhead arrow" or anything that affects your visibility less than the fire arrow or sword. You wouldn't necessarily have to redo the whole inventory system to fix this, either. You would only really have to make 2 changes: 1) Items do not affect your visibility when you merely select them in inventory; they only affect visibility when you use the item. For example, a fire arrow does not affect your visibility when you select it (regardless of whether you use next/prev or a number key), but the fire arrow does affect your visibility when you use it (hold the mouse button to draw it back on the bow.) So basically, you'd have to move the visibility-change from item select to item use. And one special case: 2) The sword is not draw when you select it with next/prev (if you want, it is drawn when you press the sword number key.) After you select the sword with next/prev, you click to draw it. You only need this confirmation click with the sword (and perhaps only when you select it with next/prev.) I prefer the consistency of a fully half-life-like inventory system with a confirmation click for every weapon select, but if that's going to be a problem, the middle ground I just described seems like it would make the UI better without really sacrificing anything. This way, cycling through your abstract inventory does not affect in-game events, such as guards noticing you. Regardless of the specific implementation involved, do you agree with the basic idea that the inventory system is abstract, and merely cycling through it to find the weapon you want should not alert guards in the process?

Enter option 2, the best of both worlds: 2) Only require a confirmation click after cycling through the inventory with next/prev item keys - you may have selected a weapon only because you're cycling past it to the next weapon. Don't require a confirmation click after pressing a weapon number key - assuming if you pressed the number, you really meant it. This would be less forgiving of mistakes with pressing the wrong number, but it would allow you to select weapons faster using the number keys - they become "shortcut" keys.

There are 2 options either or which seems reasonable to me: 1) Require a confirmation click after cycling through the inventory with next/prev item keys, and also require a confirmation click after pressing a weapon number key. 2) Only require a confirmation click after cycling through the inventory with next/prev item keys - you may have selected a weapon only because you're cycling past it to the next weapon. Don't require a confirmation click after pressing a weapon number key - assuming if you pressed the number, you really meant it. This would be less forgiving of mistakes with pressing the wrong number, but it would allow you to select weapons faster using the number keys - they become "shortcut" keys.

Makes sense to me, Sotha. Glad you agree.

I hope I won't have any opposition if say Thief 1/2 is not a perfect game in every detail, and great as it is, there are some things that could be improved. If you agree with me this far, then let me tell you one thing I think dark mod could do better. In thief and dark mod 1.04, merely cycling through your inventory makes you more visible and can give you away. For example, as you cycle past your sword or a fire arrow on your way to selecting a key, you're briefly illuminated while the sword or fire arrow is cycling past, and this can alert enemies. This should not be the case. Cycling to an item in your inventory should not affect your visibility at all. However, using an item can still affect your visibility. Let me be clear - readying your sword or drawing a fire arrow back on your bow should still make you more visible, but you should not become more visible merely be cycling to that item in your inventory. The inventory is an abstract way of managing your items. Of course, in reality they're in your backpack, your quiver, the sheath at your side, hooked to your belt, etc. There is no sequential list of items or "inventory" in any physical sense. Cycling through your inventory is an contrivance of the game interface. We'd all agree on this, right? It makes no sense that you would, under any circumstances, take out your sword in the process of getting your lock picks ready. None at all. Likewise, there's no reason in the world you'd ever take out a glowing fire arrow and give away your position to a guard when all you mean to do is take out a rope arrow. It's not like your quiver is a queue, and you can only access it by pulling things out of the top and then stuffing them back in the bottom. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to do away with the ability to cycle through your inventory. I think the ability to cycle through your inventory is an extremely useful, perhaps indispensable part of the game's interface. What I'm saying is: cycling through your inventory should not represent physically taking out and putting away each item in turn. Cycling through your inventory should be an abstract operation, similar to the inventory itself. Cycling past items in your inventory should not make you more visible. It makes the inventory cycle annoying and dangerous to use. For example, when you cycle to a fire arrow, your visibility should not be affected - you're not actually getting a fire arrow out of your quiver at this point. But once you hold down the mouse button to draw the fire arrow back on your bow - now you're getting the fire arrow out, now you become visible. Does that make sense? For another example, when you cycle to your sword, your visibility should not be affected - you should not actually get your sword out at this point. In thief and dark mod 1.04, you do get your sword out at this point - you can see the sword model and the unsheathing animation. This actually creates 2 problems: A your visibility is increased, and B when you continue cycling through your inventory, it takes a few precious moments for the re-sheathing animation to finish, preventing you from using another item right away. I think you should not get your sword out when you cycle to it in inventory - you should have to first cycle to it, then tap the mouse button to unsheath. Does that makes sense?

Problems I've encountered in 1.04: AI walking around and around in tight circles, usually near a door. Sudden, drastic drop in framerate while underwater, and I have a pretty high-end system. (intel 4-core i7 950, 6 GB RAM, ATI radeon HD 5870 1 GB, win 7 pro 64, running at 1920x1200.) Water-splash effect looks bizarre in some situations, such as dragging a ragdoll around in shallow water - the entire surface of the water turns white, I guess because the splash effect is being triggered over and over again continuously. Water-splash sound plays 3-4 times in rapid succession when I jump into deep water. Guards with lanterns drop the lanterns when KO-ed, and then there is no way to pick up or even move the lantern - it becomes a new, permanent light source. I noticed this in Knighton Manor. BJ-ing is easier than in the previous version, but still fiddly and frustrating. The end-mission music stutters, that is, it starts playing, restarts after less than 1 second, then cuts out without finishing. Menu screen items aren't visible at first, and fade in gradually after a few moments. I know this is on purpose, but whatever tiny amount it contributes to the thiefy atmosphere is far overwhelmed by how annoying it is to have to wait a few extra moments every single time you want to use the menu.

FYI, this skybox bug is fixed now for me. Not sure what exactly did it. Before, I had an older driver version and no catalyst control center installed (not sure what that means for catalyst AI.) Since then I've updated my driver, still no catalyst control center, but now I've installed radeonpro and disabled catalyst AI that way.

Don't automatically restart when you install or uninstall a mission. I know you have to restart to finish installing/uninstalling, but let the user decide when. What I mean is, when they install/uninstall, tell them "The mission will be installed/uninstalled when TDM restarts", then give them 2 options: 1) restart 2) quit If they quit, the mission will finish installing/uninstalling the next time they start TDM. I'm noticing several use-cases that come up fairly regularly where I wish I had the ability to do this. For example, when I finish a mission, sometimes I want to uninstall it or even install the next mission I plan to play, but I don't want to play again right away. So I should be able to start installing/uninstalling, and then just quit. There's no need to quit, automatically restart, only to then quit again. It's cumbersome and time-consuming on older systems. For another example, I just uninstalled a mission, with the intention of deleting it when after I quited. But I had to uninstall, automatically restart, then quit again. Hypothetically, if I could simply uninstall then quit, would it be okay to delete the mission, without restarting and quiting again first? Or would that break something?

Also in THOLS, I went down a manhole and got washed away by irresistible current, and got stuck up against a grate. I didn't drown, just couldn't get out and had to reload. I suspect this is just an oversight on the part of the mapper, but it could be a bug with movement in water, I dunno.

If this has been reported before, I guess I didn't search for the right keywords. In The Heart of Lone Salvation, in the alley just after you climb over the first fence you have to climb over, there's a will o'wisp or something. A light source travels down the alley, illuminating the walls, but there's nothing there to cast the light. It's almost like light from some guard's lantern is propagating through a wall and illuminating where it shouldn't, but that's just a guess. Has anyone else seen this?

Supposedly, the Doom 3 engine will become open source before the end of the year. My impression is there's more than enough work left to be done on dark mod in the meantime that does not require an open source engine.

Because they think software entrenchment is more important than software quality. Getting people used to/dependent on your product is more important than making it work right - same strategy as microsoft.

Thank you very much. Disabling catalyst AI via radeonpro seems to work, allowing TDM to run right-side-up with the latest driver version.

Nasty file removed does not run for me. It just reports and error, a missing dll. Also, it appears to be impossible for me to install an older driver. If I try to install the older driver, it won't because I already have a newer one. If I uninstall my driver first, the GPU disappears from my the device manager control panel. Then if I try to install the old driver, it also doesn't install, for unknown reasons (possibly because the GPU is not detected?) If I "reinstall" the GPU from so it appears in the device manager, windows automatically installs the newest driver again. Kafka couldn't have planned it any better. This pisses me off so much. AMD GPU... NEVER AGAIN! Next time I'm getting nvidia, I don't care how hot the card gets or how much noise it makes, at least it will fucking work. So much for dark mod.

"What do you mean by uninstall? Did you literally uninstall it from the programs menu? If you literally uninstalled it, you should reinstall it. The instructions are to 'disable' catalyst AI, not uninstall it." The first time I had this problem, I disabled catalyst AI through catalyst control center. And then the screen was still upside-down. Then I uninstalled catalyst control center, and the screen change to right-side-up. At some point, I updated my driver. I hadn't played dark mod in a while, and I updated from 1.03 to 1.04 before I played again. Now the screen is upside-down again. So I rolled back my driver. The screen is still upside-down. I still don't have catalyst control center installed. Are you saying I should reinstall catalyst control center, because that's the only way to disable catalyst AI? I guess I might as well try that, because I've got nothing left to lose, but it makes no sense to do so, because I already rolled back my driver to a version that worked perfectly before, but now it doesn't work (and both then and now, I didn't have catalyst AI installed.) I suspect ATI is doing some behind-the-scenes shehnanigans. Let's just hope they left some way for me to work around their "helpful", game-breaking software.

I rolled back my driver once, and the screen is still upside-down. I don't think I can roll back any more - this is a new computer and I only recently installed the GPU driver for the first time. But it WAS right-side-up at one point in the past. So frustrating. Is nvidia generally better than ATI, in terms of compatibility?

Hmm. I also have the upside-down stretched screen bug, also win7 64, with ATI Radeon 5800. But I don't have catalyst control center installed.

I have a problem. The game was being rendered upside-down, similar to xiorath. So I unstalled catalyst AI. Then the game rendered correctly. Then I updated dark mod from 1.03 to 1.04. Now it renders upside-down again. Only now, there's no catalyst AI to uninstall. What should I do?

In No Honor Among Thieves 1/3, as soon as I exit the inn, there's a small archway to my left, a hole which is wide at ground level but quickly tapers, which I could probably crawl through but not walk through. An AI got stuck in that archway. He just kept walking without ever getting anywhere, unable to fit through the hole. At first, I thought this was a problem with the pathfinding code, but that made me wonder about the state of pathfinding in games today. Would the same thing happen in any other engine? Do any engines actually sweep the AI's physics model along potential paths before the AI gets there, in order to make sure they're passable? Or do they all just calculate pathfinding based on the ground (as dark mod apparently does)? If the latter, maybe it's not reasonable to expect the pathfinding code to fix problems like AI getting stuck in the archway. Maybe it needs to be solved at the level of map building. For example, an "AI path blocker" object with a bounding box, which could be placed under the arch. The object would be invisible and the player would be able to pass through it, but AI would react to it the same way as a transparent wall (i.e. not try to walk through it.) I'm curious, is this a pathfinding-algorithm issue or a map-building issue?